Female mounting: dominance behavior or over-excitement?
Ok, the world of dog-to-dog interactions is all still a bit new to me. I need some help here.
As many of you know, Jack is our two-year-old male Corgi, who we have had since he was a puppy. He is a happy-go-lucky guy. In playing with other dogs, he is very confident in showing dominance (always wins wrestling matches, pins other dogs or has them willingly roll over and show belly) but he is never aggressive. I've not seen him growl at another dog, and on the rare occasion when someone would try to start a fight, he'll run. So he's normally fairly dominant with happy well-adjusted dogs, but not wiling to force the issue with those who are aggressive.
Madison is our new addition. She's a nearly-five-year-old female who we just brought home three weeks ago. She is fairly submissive. Jack has not bullied her, but he will do some dominant things like hook his paw on her shoulder or put his chin over her shoulder and gently nip at it, or jump right over her if she's lying in his way and he's running.
Jack is very intense when he plays. When he is chasing a ball, there is much play-growling and sliding and a mad gleam in his eyes. Madison has seemed a bit intimidated to play with him. They have gotten along just fine; they'll touch noses and greet each other. No mutual grooming or cuddling, but they are still getting used to each other and it's been warm enough that they don't want to lie down by us, let alone each other. Maddie has made a few half-hearted efforts to play with Jack, but nothing much. Jack will ask her to play but she's not been too sure.
Well, yesterday she started chasing him if he was chasing a ball, and I thought she was moving towards playing with him. Now today, whenever he tries to run, she starts to hump him. I have gone online and while some behaviorists say humping is generally a sign of dominance, others say that is not always the case; lower-ranking members will hump higher-ranking ones to gain status within a pack; dogs will hump if they are over-excited in play as well. And while some sources say a dog allowing itself to be humped is a sign of submission, others say that a confident dog will often simply tolerate it and act as if it's not happening.
If she is just over-excited, I would like to redirect the behavior as it's a bit obnoxious. If in fact they are sorting out their own "rank" between each other, I don't want to get involved unless there is a show of aggression, which there has not yet been.
Jack's reaction seems to be bemusement. He walks out from under her. He tries to wait her out. If all else fails, he'll turn and mouth at her (it's not even air-snapping; there are no curled lips or anything. I've seen dogs air-snap in warning and his snapping is not like that at all, more like the mouthing dogs do when they play). His mouthing at her will get her off, but then as soon as he runs she's at it again. He is not doing anything in any way, shape, or form that looks like submission to me. Toleration, perhaps.
Any insights? I don't want it to start a fight, and I don't want her to get obsessed with it, but I don't want to interfere with them sorting out their relationship either.
Edit: I wanted to add that if he does not have a toy in his mouth, he is immediately turning around and mouthing at her. However, if he's got a tennis ball, he is intent on keeping that in his mouth and that's when he acts like he's thinking "What the heck is this chick doing? Can't she see I'm playing here?" When he's chasing a ball, he's very focused on that.
As many of you know, Jack is our two-year-old male Corgi, who we have had since he was a puppy. He is a happy-go-lucky guy. In playing with other dogs, he is very confident in showing dominance (always wins wrestling matches, pins other dogs or has them willingly roll over and show belly) but he is never aggressive. I've not seen him growl at another dog, and on the rare occasion when someone would try to start a fight, he'll run. So he's normally fairly dominant with happy well-adjusted dogs, but not wiling to force the issue with those who are aggressive.
Madison is our new addition. She's a nearly-five-year-old female who we just brought home three weeks ago. She is fairly submissive. Jack has not bullied her, but he will do some dominant things like hook his paw on her shoulder or put his chin over her shoulder and gently nip at it, or jump right over her if she's lying in his way and he's running.
Jack is very intense when he plays. When he is chasing a ball, there is much play-growling and sliding and a mad gleam in his eyes. Madison has seemed a bit intimidated to play with him. They have gotten along just fine; they'll touch noses and greet each other. No mutual grooming or cuddling, but they are still getting used to each other and it's been warm enough that they don't want to lie down by us, let alone each other. Maddie has made a few half-hearted efforts to play with Jack, but nothing much. Jack will ask her to play but she's not been too sure.
Well, yesterday she started chasing him if he was chasing a ball, and I thought she was moving towards playing with him. Now today, whenever he tries to run, she starts to hump him. I have gone online and while some behaviorists say humping is generally a sign of dominance, others say that is not always the case; lower-ranking members will hump higher-ranking ones to gain status within a pack; dogs will hump if they are over-excited in play as well. And while some sources say a dog allowing itself to be humped is a sign of submission, others say that a confident dog will often simply tolerate it and act as if it's not happening.
If she is just over-excited, I would like to redirect the behavior as it's a bit obnoxious. If in fact they are sorting out their own "rank" between each other, I don't want to get involved unless there is a show of aggression, which there has not yet been.
Jack's reaction seems to be bemusement. He walks out from under her. He tries to wait her out. If all else fails, he'll turn and mouth at her (it's not even air-snapping; there are no curled lips or anything. I've seen dogs air-snap in warning and his snapping is not like that at all, more like the mouthing dogs do when they play). His mouthing at her will get her off, but then as soon as he runs she's at it again. He is not doing anything in any way, shape, or form that looks like submission to me. Toleration, perhaps.
Any insights? I don't want it to start a fight, and I don't want her to get obsessed with it, but I don't want to interfere with them sorting out their relationship either.
Edit: I wanted to add that if he does not have a toy in his mouth, he is immediately turning around and mouthing at her. However, if he's got a tennis ball, he is intent on keeping that in his mouth and that's when he acts like he's thinking "What the heck is this chick doing? Can't she see I'm playing here?" When he's chasing a ball, he's very focused on that.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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I read this:
http://www.petsalley.com/newsdoghumping.html
and it sounds like some behaviorists are saying mounting is not dominance behavior in many cases.
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Permalink Reply by Garrett, Katie, & Conan on
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I read the article. It's very interesting. Until reading it I had always thought (like every one else probably) that it was a dominance thing. I'm reading Cesar's Way, and he doesn't really talk about it much other than that it seems to be associated with higher levels of testosterone (which is associated with dominant behavior) and that it is natural and instinctual for dogs to mount each other. He says puppies do it in a playful way to act out the dominance and submission roles that will be a big part of their adult lives. Maybe that's what's going on? Maybe because Jack plays rough, Madison's way of rough (or calm-aggressive, if that makes sense) play is mounting him? I'm sure you could easily redirect her behavior into something more appropriate.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I would stop her when she does it. Izzy has a tendency to race barking after Sparty or Misty when they run and I just gave her a firm no to stop her. She is pretty mild mannered and it does not take much to get her off something. I guess I always felt that it was a behavior that could potentially cause problems. I think in Izzy's case she just wants to join in and doesn't do it in an appropriate way.
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Thank you both. I really think it's because Jack is very excited in play, so Madison gets excited too but then does not have an appropriate outlet for her enthusiasm. She is not a vigorous ball-chaser; she'll hop after it a couple times and then she is done. Jack will play enthusiastically til I get tired or he is panting so hard he's ready to keel over. So his play energy level is so much higher than hers and I think it's confusing/frustrating her, and hence the mounting.
I have decided to step in, as she's being obnoxious about it and won't let him move without going after him. Even if I am misinterpreting and she's making a power play to be the more dominant of the two, she has no right to interfere in my play-time with him. She gets plenty of attention too.
She came from a home with several dogs, but four of them were littermates and undoubtedly established their behavior with each other at a young age; trying to establish a relationship with a new dog is probably not something she's done much of, despite coming from a home with lots of dogs.
I am afraid that if it is not stopped, it will cause a fight; Jack started putting his ears back, and not in an "I submit" way but in a "you're really getting on my last nerve" way. So I will work on keeping her relaxed when he is playing and watch them closely to see if their interactions have changed in other areas.
It's strange, because it seemed to just start totally out of the blue, yet she was immediately obsessed with it.
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Thanks, Kerry. This is why I am torn on how to proceed. I do know that if a person steps in and appears to back up one dog over the other, it can also cause a bigger problem further down the road.
This morning Jack was not distracted by a toy already in his mouth, and when she went to mount him he flattened her. He wasn't aggressive (no growling, no teeth) but he hooked his front paws over her head and shoulders and used his weight to sort of say "Enough!" She backed off for a minute, then chased him again next time he ran. Whatever it is she's trying to do, she's a bit obsessed with it. Jack mostly just tries to keep chasing the toy, but if she gets a good grip on him he can't really pull her behind him and that's when he turns around and shoves her off. It's a bizarre little ritual. Jack is a very tolerant dog, both by nature and by training. I think it will take quite a bit to finally get to him.
The other interesting thing is that Jack is not much of a lap dog, but as a result of this several times he has jumped up and laid across either myself or my husband's laps (very relaxed, not nervous or looking for reassurance). Maddie loves to cuddle and frequently jumps up by us, and it seems to my human brain that Jack is making a point there. Not sure what is going on in the dog's brain though....
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Haha, I sort of want to see a video of them. It sounds like a bizarre little ritual indeed! I think you will be okay to observe them for a bit if that's what you want. Since neither are overly dominant, and Maddie is more on the submissive side it seems unlikely that a fight will break out. Behaviorists generally say all form of dog play is a way, even if it's not a serious way, for dogs to establish rank with each other (though that article may be on to something different). Our roommate's dog is just as dominant as Conan, so neither will tolerate losing a wrestle. So we can't let them get too carried away when playing (Carl, our roommate's dog, will mount Conan, but Conan doesn't mount, nor does he tolerate it for long), and we keep an eye on them and call them apart if their growling starts to escalate and they seem to be getting carried away.
We haven't had any fights, but I don't have any doubts that it could happen. But, as I said, it doesn't sound like you should have that problem. And Conan can wrestle all day long with Garrett's parents' Doberman mix. They're like a match made in Heaven!
Good luck with your doggie rituals :)
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We may have had some progress today. This morning, Jack had finally had enough and he growled loudly at her. I have never heard him growl at another dog, and I think he surprised himself because after he came running to me for reassurance. Maddie did snark back at him, but she ran off and then went and laid down somewhere.
They both had a rest while my husband and I ate breakfast and read the Sunday paper, and then Maddie ignored Jack for a little bit while he played, but after a minute or two she was right back at it. Jack frapped around the table once or twice then invited her to play, which she ignored (again). Then I was just playing what I call mouthy games with Jack, where I use my hand the way a dog would use it's mouth to do some "tooth fencing." Well, Jack was just sitting there very quietly playing this game, no growling or running or even moving except his mouth, and Maddie went for him again and at that point I'd had enough and I gave her a stern correction to back up his protest. I understand the logic behind letting them sort it out themselves, but frankly after having Jack give her 100 corrections and her ignoring every one, I was beyond frustrated. When Jack first met Maddie he tried to mount her a few times, and after her first polite growl he never tried again.
Anyway, after that she seemed a bit chastised. Later on Jack was running again and she was good so we praised her, and then I threw a toy and she actually ran for it herself (which she does not normally do) and so I told Jack to "leave it" and encouraged her to play for awhile and praised her for that too.
I am no behaviorist, but it seems to me that she is not exhibiting dominance so much as she is excited by the chase but for some reason is not sure how to engage him in play (different play styles, perhaps) and she finds the mounting a comforting tension release. I'm just afraid it will turn into doggie OCD if not stopped. I think I'll try to call Kandy (her breeder) this evening and see what her take on it is. I also want to get them out and throw a ball in a more open area, to see how they react to that.
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I found this which makes more sense than all the other stuff I've read. It actually matches most closely what Kerry said:
http://doglinks.co.nz/problems/barry_place/mounting.htm
"To concentrate on mounting, it is one dog's attempt to test whether it is the boss. You can think of it as a way for that dog to say to the other, "I'm the one who makes the decisions and will tell you what to do." In reality, however, the mounting behavior is really a sign of insecurity. The mounting dog is really saying something more like, "I'm the one who makes the decisions and will tell you what to do--AREN'T I...? (Hope so!)"
It is actually the other dog that answers the question and establishes the relationship. So if the mounted dog objects and turns and growls and pushes the other guy off regularly, the answer is "The hell you are, buddy!"
If the other dog tolerates the mounting with little objection, and seems to be intimidated by it, then the answer is, "OK, whatever you say, boss."
However, many times the mounted dog will do little or nothing, often allowing the mounting but occasionally objecting, and will seem very uninterested and nonchallant. In this case the dog being mounted is not acknowledging the other dog's claim to leadership, but is:
A) Either very secure in her place, confident, and therefore not threatened by the play for dominance, or
B) Just could care less!
The opinion of the mounted dog will often change with time. Very often, the mounting is disregarded for many weeks, and then gradually, the mounted dog starts to object more and more. ("Enough of this, already!") At some point, a dog that accepted mounting for some time will also become adamant and will turn on the mounter and growl or snarl ("That's it! No more!) Also, the mounter may simply abandon the activity. This happens often when the other dog either gives many warnings and angry reactions, or gives the mounter no attention at all!"
Jack's reaction is somewhere between ignoring it, and saying "I don't think so!" And then he will frequently go up and hook his chin over her shoulder, and a couple times he put his front paws over her shoulder from the side. He is rather calmly replying "I'm still the bigger, stronger one around here, sweetie. Mind your manners."
I believe if it continues I will try to let them sort it out, but in the meantime I will also leash or pen her a few times a day to allow Jack to romp and play without being harassed, making sure of course to still have one-on-one play time just with her. If it starts escalating into full-blown fights, I would of course intervene.
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Sounds like you are the best judge of what to do here. In my case Sparty is very dominant and does not hesitate to "throw down" with a strange dog so I try to avoid his patience getting tried. He isn't actually dog aggressive but has been known to bite my neighbor's poor clueless cocker spaniel when she did not get his back off clues.
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Sounds like you've got it figured out! I think it should sort itself out fine, even if you do have to intervene just so Jack can play without having to be mounted every time. This also definitely sounds the most accurate, especially to your situation. Hopefully she gets over it sooner than later :)
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Hi Beth,
I have a totally different idea on this BUT don't know if there's a connection... one of my rescues came from a breeder and exhibited the same humping actions...I just thought it was due to her coming from a place where there were probably(?) several females??? She didn't seem to do this as a dominance thing but would occasionally do this and now one of my spayed females has started doing this also (occasionally)but it seems to be when she wants to get in on the playing not any dominance thing. I really don't have a clue I just thought I'd give you my observation on this. If Madison hasn't learned how to play because of her busy life before your place maybe this is how they played. My Rainy is not a big player compared to my other corgis either! ??????
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