seemingly random aggression?
So it will be 2 weeks tomorrow that I have had Kirby. He has been such a good boy up until a few days ago. He and Franklin have been getting along great, playing like crazy, Franklin has tolerated all of his obnoxious puppy behavior with very little fuss. A few days ago Kirby was being particularly obnoxious so Franklin did a bark correction to him (kirby was jumping all over him and nipping him when we were playing fetch). Well Kirby FREAKED OUT on Franklin and turned into a little Tazmanian devil being very aggressive. I broke them up and separated them and then a few minutes later when they had settled down they were fine and acting like nothing ever happened. Fast forward a few days and the dogs are playing a game of tug (which they have done EVERY day since I brought Kirby home). Well Kirby stole the toy and went and laid down with it and Frank went to go get it to continue the game and Kirby flipped out AGAIN. Not just a growl or nip but a lunge and chase going after Franklin when Franklin was retreating, basically cornering Franklin so he would have to react. I just don't know what to do about this behavior because Kirby is so bipolar. He is a super submissive and timid dog one minute, licking Franklin's mouth and rolling on his back and then a few hours later he transforms into Kujo. I haven't seen any behavior changes in Franklin that would cause Kirby to feel threatened and I am worried this may be the real Kirby coming out. I am now at my parents' house for the weekend and they have a super sweet black lab that was playing really well with Kirby yesterday and today and then again today Kirby all of a sudden went Kujo on their dog. I just don't understand this behavior and don't know what to do about it. I know that Franklin and Kirby will likely need to establish a pecking order, up until now Franklin was just accepted as dominant. The problem is though, that Kirby will be super submissive one minute and then all of a sudden try to dominate Franklin. I know it's got to be confusing to Franklin and while I don't want to interfere while they try to establish who's boss, I also don't want to have a serious fight. Franklin doesn't fight but if he is cornered with a dog attacking him, he wil certainly stand up for himself until he can get away. I guess right now I am a little gun shy with the fighting because we just had a fight with the rescues at my school. Three pitbull sisters who have been getting along great, all of a sudden the most "submissive" sister decided she wanted to kill one of her siblings. The 3rd sister joined in because of the whole pack mentality thing. One of my classmates got bit twice breaking them up and I am absolutely certain the dog who was attacked would have been killed had they not split them up. As it is, the "victim" was torn to shreds and needed a ton of stiches and staples to put her back together. I don't want to have to deal with this kind of stuff at home with Franklin and Kirby so want to make sure I am dealing with it properly. Do I break it up? Do I let them fight and establish who's boss? Not sure what to do.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
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I would never let two dogs fight. The message from me is I'm top dog here (or pack leader, if you wish) and I won't have any of this for any reason! Correct any posturing as well and don't leave the dogs alone unattended where they have to sort things out on their own. At your parent's house, with one more dog in the picture, I would keep him on leash. Too many variables to control. In time you will be better able to assess his temperament and personality, but this will give him the best chance to learn where he fits in.
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Permalink Reply by Emily & Scout on
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I really hope it all works out. I've been rooting for you for a while on finding Franklin a buddy. I don't have any advice, as I've never had to deal with it, but just writing to let you know I wish you, Frank, and Kirby the best.
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Permalink Reply by Sandy Stickney on
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Hey Melissa, my Kirby is a sweet boy, mostly submissive, but I have had trouble with him getting overly excited in a split second and it ends up in a dog fight. It's not so bad when it's the 2 corgis, because I am able to stop them with verbal commands (I have a "that's enough!" command that I use when they get too wound up, but when it's Kirby and my golden retreiver, it is very difficult to break them up. I have to be very vigilant and if I can recognize the cues early enough, I can stop Kirby before he gets ramped up. I always intervene and get them separated, either with the air can or by grabbing the corgi by the back legs and pulling him off.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Does he start with a "stare"? That is my clue with Livvy that it's time to get them apart and give her time to calm down. Livvy will not hesitate to go after a couple of my females but maybe leash him and when you see "that look" step on his leash and kennel him. Livvy has gotten much better but I still am always "aware".
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on
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I don't ever tolerate fighting, or the body language/verbal growls that are leading to a fight. I know what sets them off (toys mainly), and separate them before it becomes an issue. How old is Kirby? Franklin was yours first right? So Kirby came into the home? Just trying to give you more ideas.
My vet says to let them work it out, that eventually a fight will happen whether you are there or not, but I don't tolerate them at all. Especially if one is being bullied. If Kirby is young enough, pin him. I know that others here don't agree with that method, but I have done it to all my aggressive dogs, and it breaks them of the problem. I don't rule by fear, and my dogs are well adjusted, happy and non-aggressive. They just know that I am the leader, and I won't tolerate that behavior. But that being said, if you are not a dominant personality and don't have the energy that says you are the leader, it's not going to work. You can't ask a dog to "please sit", you have to tell them to sit. I'm not saying be mean to them, or beat them to get them to do what you want...some dogs are soft dogs and need encouragement. This is where you need to know your dog....I guess my best advice would be to get a trainer in now to work with you while he is still new and impressionable.
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Jennifer, I want to comment on your excellent post because I am one of those who have often come down against "rolling and pinning" a dog. The problem with the technique is that there are very few occasions where it is appropriate and very few people who can pull it off properly, so many dogs have been made worse for it and it puts people at risk of a severe bite by a dog who is challenging them. It would take too long to describe in how many ways I have seen this method ( I believe first advocated by the Monks of New Skeet ) misused.
This case is one, as you say, where it can actually work well. What I particularly like about what you write is that you make it clear that it will only work if you have a certain mindset.... This is worth trying with a dog who is NOT people aggressive. If it will work, it should work within one or two corrections, and that's what happened in your case. If not, I would stop doing it.
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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Kirby is somewhere around 7-10 months, not sure exactly how old he is. He is the new addition to the house. Franklin is one of those dogs that gets along with pretty much everybody and even the most dominant/aggressive dogs with time will allow him to take toys from them etc. He has one of those personalities where he knows exactly what needs to be done to win over another dog. Kirby came into the house and Frank growled a bit the first day and snapped at Kirby when Kirby tried to get into his food bowl at feeding time, but other than that there have been zero issues. I feed Kirby in an ex-pen and Franklin in another room, both have to sit and stay and wait for the ok before they are allowed to eat.I did pin him the second time it happened because that was the only thing I knew would stop the behavior immediately. It did work and I'm hoping I won't have to do it again. I think with Kirby I am having a hard time because he is SO SUBMISSIVE and fearful around humans that I don't have his respect as a leader, but rather he does what I ask because he is scared of getting hurt. When I call him and he thinks he is in trouble he will run away, if I walk up to him and take his collar to encourage him to go where I want him to go he yelps and pees. I need to figure out how to teach him he isn't going to get beat up and not to be so fearful of me because I know once he realizes that he will be very easy to train. I know it will take time, but it's making training him hard.
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Permalink Reply by Snickmom on
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Dolly (4 yo) is very easy going and loves people but wouldn't come when she was called if she didn't want to. If you use a harsh voice on her she would cower and get skittish. It took a lot of practice to convince her that nothing bad would ever happen if she came when she was called. She will be very obedient for a while and then suddenly think about bolting when you called her; she will come, but definitely needs a lot of patience and we've had her 8 months. I need to take her to a training class and get some expert help on how to handle her. Usually slow and steady works but sometimes I have to be very firm before she will get what I want. Then she will regress again, *sigh*.
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Obedience training by gentle methods and a few occasional treats is a good confidence builder with fearful dogs because it allows them to know what is expected, under what circumstances and the results are consistently good. This helps build trust in the trainer as well. Aggression is another matter, where gentle methods do not work...so, if he displays any aggressive tendencies in a class situation, I would curb that in no uncertain terms.
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In this case, then don't pin him. If he's acting out of fear, then pinning will just make him worse. You need to start training with him. Puppy obedience, agility, whatever. Every week, try to learn a new trick. Every day work on it for 5 minutes (no longer), and praise INSANELY when he gets it. NO negative reinforcement at all. Only positive for doing things you ask. He's a soft dog- so no sudden movements, no yelling, grabbing, etc. The key to earning his respect is to get him to trust you. The best way to do this, is by rewarding the heck out of him when he does what is asked. It will be a long process, but if you work with him every day, he'll get it, and become a good dog. I'd still keep them separated at key fight times- food, toys...but little skirmishes will happen until he gets his self-esteem up. Hope this helps.
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Permalink Reply by Jane on
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I'd implement NILF if you haven't yet and keep a short leash on him for now. If you see him ramping up for a fight grab him right away and make him settle down, or just put him in an xpen for a while. I don't agree with pinning a dog, especially a young, usually fairly timid guy in a new household, but that's my opinion. Unless you know exactly what is causing these outbursts (fear? resource guarding? aggression?) I think it could do more harm than good.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Two adult dogs in the home and one of them is new...really it was a matter of time before this would happen. Kirby probably just doesn't yet see you as the clear leader and is jockeying for position when ever he sees an opening. This will often happen when a puppy matures and decides to challenge the older dog. I also, do not allow any of that in my pack. You just need to work some obedience with Kirby with out Franklin. Meanwhile I would have him trail a rope or leash until you feel you have more control over him. You should be able to tell either dog to "knock it off" and have them listen. Don't worry they will forget this phase long before you do. You just have to convince Kirby that you are the leader. I have always found that a session of classes helps me stay on top.
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