Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on November 20, 2011 at 9:10pm

Here's a good site that goes into good detail about personality development: http://wonder-puppy.com/puppy-parents/puppy-development-stages

 

in my classes we were always told that 8-9 weeks is optimum time because they have learned manners and pack behavior from their mother and siblings and it still gives you time to bond with the puppy and establish yourself as leader. In California it is against the law to re-home puppies under eight weeks of age, but of course people do it all the time, but that is how you know the irresponsible breeders from some of the better breeders. Anyway, the site above has some pretty good info as to the when/why of personality development

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 20, 2011 at 9:25pm

Keep in mind that until a couple decades ago, many reputable sources recommended starting to place puppies as soon as they were weaned.  We got a Springer Spaniel pup at 5 weeks old when I was a kid, and honestly she was just fine.  Soft mouth, good with kids, sweet and tractable.  

 

However, knowing what we know now, I think 7 weeks is a little young.  Pups placed too young may not have great dogs skills, and in our times we expect our dogs to like other dogs.  They may also be more inclined to be fearful of new things.

 

Can I ask why you want to wait til the pup is 12 weeks, though? That is honestly really pushing it as far as age.  The socialization window closes between 14 and 16 weeks.  That means when you bring pup home, you have only two to four weeks to acclimate your pup to EVERYTHING you want her to accept in life.  That is really, really difficult.  I'd only take a pup that old if the breeder had started very extensive socialization one-on-one, without littermates present.  

 

I think around 9 or 10 weeks is ideal, depending on the vaccination schedule the breeder uses.  If you get a pup at that age, they may have had 2 sets of shots already.  They can also typically stay crated for 7 hours or so at night which means the new owner can lock the pup in the crate overnight and ignore her if she cries; younger pups can't hold it and it can be tough to crate-train when you don't know if pup is whining because she's lonely or because she needs to potty.  

 

But IMO 12 weeks, as I said, is pushing it.  Too little time to socialize.   

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 20, 2011 at 9:28pm

By the way, we brought Jack home a day or two shy of 10 weeks.  It was a nice age.  He slept through the night from day one.  He'd had two sets of shots so we were able to start taking him out within a week of bringing him home.    However, despite the extra pack time, he was a shark and bit HARD.  His litter was very rough and that's one thing no one mentions when they say how important time with the litter is.  The breeder told us that when she'd put mom back out to play with the pups (after weaning) they would see her coming and RUN the other way because she played so rough with them.   Extra time with mom and litter might not teach them everything you think it will.  Dogs can tolerate much harder play-bites than humans can, with their heavy coats and thicker skin. 

 

He is, though, very dog-savvy and confident and I do think the age of placement was one of many factors that contributed to that.

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Permalink Reply by Becky S on November 21, 2011 at 10:57am

Wow Beth, your info just gave me great insight into my 2.  We got Brody at 8 weeks,  he was very mouthy (took a long time to fix that) not always the best at meeting new dogs (a little rambucious) and fearful of new things, things that fly, flutter, etc.  Now Lilly we got at 12 weeks and while she is bolder, never mouthy and better at meeting other dogs, she is very shy around new people even though we socialized her right away.  But after Brody greets a new person, then she will go up to them.  So I think that the 9-10 weeks would be optimal as well.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 20, 2011 at 9:33pm

I wanted to add one more thing:  by 14 weeks of age or so puppies don't nap much, don't get tired, and start getting bold and mouthy.   Younger puppies are more compliant and don't realize they can ignore you.  It's much easier to teach a younger puppy (8 to 10 weeks) to sit, and come when called, than it is to teach an older puppy.  Crouch down and clap your hands and a young puppy runs to you.  Once they reach you, they almost always sit to look up at you.  This makes early obedience training easy so when pup hits 4 months and gets an independent streak, you have an stronger foundation. 

 

For bigger dogs I think 8 or 9 weeks is ideal. For smaller dogs I think 10 weeks is ideal. Since Corgis land in the middle, I think anywhere between 8 and 10 is just about right.

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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on November 20, 2011 at 9:40pm

I don't really know the answer but it is true that not that many years ago breeders routinely placed puppies as soon as they were weaned. I suspect the answer is not a standard one and some puppies are ready sooner and some are ready later. I got Sparty at 7 weeks, Buffy at 8 weeks, and Izzy at 12 weeks and frankly they all socialized easily (although Sparty was a major nipper for a while). I would pick a really good breeder and take their advice.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 20, 2011 at 9:51pm

I do think that for an easy-going pup, older is fine.   When we brought Jack home, he was shockingly independent for a pup and already was prone to wandering off without us.  I think we would have had trouble were he any older.  The first day I brought him home and put him on the ground he headed up the street without us!   LOL

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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on November 20, 2011 at 10:47pm

I don't let my pups leave till 10 weeks as I do believe that they learn  more especially during the last couple weeks. They do get reprimanded by their mom and other female dogs in my home for things such as biting. They also have a better sense of potty training and are old enough to go out for longer periods of time. It would be easier to let them go sooner but I won't. Livvy my tri came to us at 7 weeks as her breeder said it was better...but I have had the most problems with her...due to going early I can't answer but it may be. I have had a pup here for up till almost 4 months and the great thing for the new owner was that he was potty trained and also well on his way to being a great dog.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on November 20, 2011 at 11:21pm

There is an ideal "window" rather than an ideal time.  That window is between 7 wks. and 12 wks.  It's true breeders used to place pups earlier, but many studies were done with puppies that were raised to be trained as Guide Dogs and the results were taken to heart by the more knowledgeable breeders and eventually by most good breeders.  The original puppy temperament testing, done at 7 wks. exactly, came about in the same way.  Like Jane, my pups did not leave until 10 wks, for much the same reasons, but I could provide a good environment for the pups, they were in the house, had plenty of socialization to both adults and children and I also started them on crate training, individual leash walks around the block, potty training, etc.  Not every breeder has that kind of time.  Many other factors that have to do with the situation of the new owner need to be considered and there are too  many variables  to list here.  A good breeder will ask the right questions and give the best advice for the particular situation.  Beyond 12 wks, if the puppy has not had INDIVIDUAL time and experiences away from the littermates, other problems can come in.  Again, a knowledgeable breeder can provide for this, but I would need to make sure this has been the case in buying an older pup.

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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on November 21, 2011 at 2:04am

Always ask a breeder what age they release puppies.  It costs a breeder significant time, work, and money to keep a litter for 4 extra weeks.  If they keep them 10-12 weeks instead of 8, I think that's a good sign -- they're more interested in the dogs and less interested in making money.

Our breeder didn't release Al's litter until 12 weeks (we did not get to pick him, either, BTW -- she picked him for us).  We saw her last June, and I believe she said the local breed club (CPWCC, Cascade) standard is 10 weeks minimum.  I might have that wrong, but I'm pretty sure it isn't 8.

I keep reading that bite inhibition is one of the social things they learn during those last few weeks, so if you split a litter at 8 weeks, you get mouthy, bitey, chewing puppies.

But I've also read that if you really want to mold a puppy and train it your way (and you know what you're doing), you might want to start at 8 weeks.  As Anna notes, pups need socialization with both people and their littermates, so at some point in that 8-12 window you might be able to provide the people-contact better than the breeder can.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on November 21, 2011 at 10:19am

I gotta be honest, I know that they say being with the litter gives them bite inhibition.  But here's the thing:  Our breeder had two litters that were a few days apart.  One of the dams had to have an emergency spay and couldn't nurse and that litter was hand-raised.  Jack's litter was raised by mom.

 

The hand-raised litter was gentle as could be, sweet and polite. The ones that were with mom were WILD in comparison.   Remember, dogs bite each other much harder than people can tolerate (see my note above).  I really think that bite inhibition with people comes from being handled by people, not from other dogs.

 

Learning how to be a dog comes from the litter, and that's important.  So does learning to go outside and explore with the safety of your littermates.  It is very important to have time with the litter, but I'm not too sure about the bite inhibition part.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on November 21, 2011 at 11:40am

My experience confirms what you say Beth.  Years ago I bought an Anatolian Shepherd puppy (before the  breed was AKC recognized) from a breeder who had top bloodlines, but put minimal time in the pups. They were in a barn, left with Mom to their own devices and no socialization beyond the breeder, who worked full time and lived alone  in the middle of nowhere.  She meant well and did not want to let the pups go until 10 wks,  I said I wanted the pup at 7 wks. and said I would not buy the puppy any later than 8 wks, which she agreed to because I was an experienced breeder myself.  I had second pick in the litter of 12, so had to wait for someone to choose their pup first.  I contacted those people, explained the condition of the pups and they agreed to pick their pup sooner. We were both out of State, they went at 7 wks. I went the following weekend.    Our two dogs worked out fine, we became friends.  The others were sold at various ages and I know the lady had several trips to the Vet to patch up fights within the litter.  I was told they were totally unmanageable.

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