seemingly random aggression?
So it will be 2 weeks tomorrow that I have had Kirby. He has been such a good boy up until a few days ago. He and Franklin have been getting along great, playing like crazy, Franklin has tolerated all of his obnoxious puppy behavior with very little fuss. A few days ago Kirby was being particularly obnoxious so Franklin did a bark correction to him (kirby was jumping all over him and nipping him when we were playing fetch). Well Kirby FREAKED OUT on Franklin and turned into a little Tazmanian devil being very aggressive. I broke them up and separated them and then a few minutes later when they had settled down they were fine and acting like nothing ever happened. Fast forward a few days and the dogs are playing a game of tug (which they have done EVERY day since I brought Kirby home). Well Kirby stole the toy and went and laid down with it and Frank went to go get it to continue the game and Kirby flipped out AGAIN. Not just a growl or nip but a lunge and chase going after Franklin when Franklin was retreating, basically cornering Franklin so he would have to react. I just don't know what to do about this behavior because Kirby is so bipolar. He is a super submissive and timid dog one minute, licking Franklin's mouth and rolling on his back and then a few hours later he transforms into Kujo. I haven't seen any behavior changes in Franklin that would cause Kirby to feel threatened and I am worried this may be the real Kirby coming out. I am now at my parents' house for the weekend and they have a super sweet black lab that was playing really well with Kirby yesterday and today and then again today Kirby all of a sudden went Kujo on their dog. I just don't understand this behavior and don't know what to do about it. I know that Franklin and Kirby will likely need to establish a pecking order, up until now Franklin was just accepted as dominant. The problem is though, that Kirby will be super submissive one minute and then all of a sudden try to dominate Franklin. I know it's got to be confusing to Franklin and while I don't want to interfere while they try to establish who's boss, I also don't want to have a serious fight. Franklin doesn't fight but if he is cornered with a dog attacking him, he wil certainly stand up for himself until he can get away. I guess right now I am a little gun shy with the fighting because we just had a fight with the rescues at my school. Three pitbull sisters who have been getting along great, all of a sudden the most "submissive" sister decided she wanted to kill one of her siblings. The 3rd sister joined in because of the whole pack mentality thing. One of my classmates got bit twice breaking them up and I am absolutely certain the dog who was attacked would have been killed had they not split them up. As it is, the "victim" was torn to shreds and needed a ton of stiches and staples to put her back together. I don't want to have to deal with this kind of stuff at home with Franklin and Kirby so want to make sure I am dealing with it properly. Do I break it up? Do I let them fight and establish who's boss? Not sure what to do.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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Thanks for the advice. I am definitely going to enroll Kirby in an obedience class because he just doesn't mind all that well. He is one of those dogs that is super sumbissive and timid around humans and a lot of his not minding is based in fear. He will get it in his head that he is in trouble for something (when he isn't) and if I call him over he will run away. I have been toying with the idea of just having him drag a leash around because he really needs to learn to come when I call him in the house. Now that the dogs have fought a few times I will definitely do this. I have seen no cues before Kirby freaks out. Yesterday he did snarl at Franklin over a toy and I told him "no" and took the toy away from them. The second time he attacked Franklin I did pin him. I am generally very much against pinning dogs as well, but in the heat of the moment and with how he is with humans I knew that pinning him would a) get his attention and b) allow Franklin to escape. It stopped him in his tracks immediately. I just wasn't sure if breaking things up would delay an inevitable fight or not. I've never dealt with fighting dogs in my house before. I will certainly break them up now and continue to keep him and Franklin seperated while I'm gone. I totally expected bickering between them but aggression from mr. scaredy pants really caught me off guard since he has been so submissive this whole time.
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Permalink Reply by Roger/Laurie on
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We got our Tenby at 6 months from rescue 5 years ago. He is Kirby in a nut shell. Sweetest guy, calm, so laid back, and mellow but then he goes aggressive about nothing it seems. Our kids even call him Kujo. When he goes "Kujo" it is usually because he is scared or surprized by an action. He has never hurt Chepstow, but we have always stopped him and taken him away to calm down. It is usually a lot of noise and teeth but no biting.
Once he bit me (not bad) because he was very sound asleep on the bed and I didn't know he was there and in the dark I put my hand on him. Once he realized it was me you could tell he felt terrible.
He gets aggresive out of fear and possible pain. He has severe shoulder issues and is on meds daily. We don't always understand what "all" his fears are and Chepstow doesn't know either. Sometimes Tenby will snarl at Chepstow and Chepstow will turn to us with this look of "what....really"
It probably is because he had a very neglected 6 months and no one cared about him. He doesn't like other dogs but seems to enjoy Corgi's.
He is a handful, our sweet free spirit (crazy tri) and 99% of the time things are great.
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Thank you for this. Makes me feel much better. When I brought Kirby home I felt from the get go that he was "the one". This aggression thing has me a bit worried though because I see so many corgis re-homed due to uncontrollable aggression with the other dog in the house. I REALLY don't want this to happen or it to escalate to that point. Glad to hear with Tenby it is pretty infrequent. I still haven't figured out Kirby's trigger, but perhaps it is a fear issue with him as well. I'd definitely rather be dealing with a fear aggression than a possessive aggression. It seems with fear aggressive dogs they aren't as set on actually hurting whoever they are biting, but more trying to warn or drive them away. I know he is still new to me and I won't know his true colors for several months, but aggression so early on was a little scary. Thanks again!
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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To get him to trust you, I would always walk around with small treats in my pocket and just reward him for voluntarily approaching you. If he's unsure around you then you want him to first understand that just paying attention to you brings good things.
Swap the dogs out between being locked up and loose together. Only let them play together for short periods and keep high-value toys out of the picture for now. Play tug with Kirby to help build his confidence, if he'll tug with you. If he likes to chase balls or frisbees, take him out and just play with him and praise him for relaxing and enjoying himself. Teach him sit and stay and then work on asking for micro-stays when you throw a toy, then gradually build up to having him hold the stay. Don't do this with all your play sessions, only a few. It sounds like he needs to learn some self-control. For dogs who were either poorly socialized or were not worked with at all as puppies, impulse control is often lacking.
I was going to suggest working with him to get him to move away from you if you move into his space, but since he's fearful that's probably a bad idea. It's a great non-violent respect builder, but I would probably not do that with a dog who was already afraid of me. The nice thing is it also teaches dogs that moving away from stressors is a valid option and they don't need to engage, but again his fearfulness would make me reluctant.
The other occasions sound a bit more uncertain, but when Franklin moved for the toy after Kirby had stopped the play session and turned away, Franklin was the one being a bit of a pest then. Once one dog stops playing and removes himself, the other dog is really meant to invite play again, not just assume the same game is still ongoing. So Kirby was right to correct Franklin for that, but it sounds like he really took the correction overboard and as soon as Franklin retreated, Kirby should have stopped. Who gets the toys is definitely a rank issue between the dogs that they need to sort out. Jack has claim to all toys in the house whenever he wants them and will go right up to Maddie and steal them away. That is his right as higher-ranking dog and she will not protest but then look at me like "Did you see that?" However, Jack knows that if I want a toy, I can have a toy and if I want to give it to Maddie I can do that. Top dogs are not always fair and they don't always share nicely. So they may need to sort that out by themselves but you can let them know when they cross the line. I don't roll my dogs by I have on occasion grabbed them by the scruff and given them verbal hell. Well-controlled anger is your friend here. The dogs know when you really mean it and when you are acting. Certain things just really tick me off. I almost never get mad at the dogs (frustrated yes, mad no) so when I AM mad and say "That is ENOUGH!" all the animals in the house instantly stop what they are doing, be it the very rare dog-dog quarrel or the dogs ganging up and getting a little too excited playing with the cat.
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I wanted to add that if I correct an animal in my house and it does not immediately stop, I escalate to being physical. If I asked a dog to leave alone a bag or something and they don't listen, I walk into them to back them away. If the cat is being bratty and won't stop I pick her up and dump her on the floor. Since they know that (in the house at least) they can either listen the first time or be made to listen, they usually respect the voice command right away. This is not so much obedience training as just being conditioned to respect me. It's interesting that my husband does not follow through and so the dogs will often ignore him. In fact if Jack is dozing and my husband wants to take them out for a last potty break at bedtime, I frequently have to say "Jack, go to Daddy" because he utterly ignores my husband standing by the door with leash in hand, calling him. But Jack knows that if he ignores me, I'll make him move so he listens.
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Thanks. He has officially lost ANY freedom in the house now. He will either be in an ex-pen or tied to me. When we got home from my parent's house he decided he wanted to eat the cat. They have been getting along fine until yesterday. He knows sit, but stay has been pretty much a big fail so far. None of the methods I've been taught to train dogs is working with this guy so I"m going to have to get some one on one with a trainer to work on some issues. He definitely has issues with impulse control.
As for when Franklin and Kirby play, Kirby ALWAYS steals the toy and walks away and if Franklin doesn't follow and try to steal it back will go harrass Franklin so he has never sent Franklin the appropriate "we are done playing now" signals. He definitely has impulse control issues and is constantly stealing EVERYTHING he can from Franklin. I guess it is partially Franklin's fault since he doesn't ever react, he just drops the toy and moves to another. I guess one of my bigger issues is that Kirby will steal EVERY toy. He doesn't want to play with any of the toys, he just wants to take whatever Franklin has. That's fine if he wants to be dominant or whatever, but in this case it seems quite obnoxious. Franklin looks to me to defend him or say what is right or wrong, so I don't know what my place should be here. Should I not allow Kirby to take EVERYTHING or should I just wait and make Franklin defend himself if he wants the toy? I know Franklin is not responding mostly because he is waiting for a cue from me about what to do (basically EVERYTHING Franklin does he looks to me for the ok first....he's not a real independant thinker lol).
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Toy-stealing is normal with Corgis, I think, and I would allow them to sort that out for the most part. Maddie always wants what Jack has and will make half-hearted attempts to take things he's actively playing with right from his mouth. Jack thinks all the toys are his. He will actually take toys from Maddie and lay on top of them. If I get them, say, new squeaky stuffed toys I do play referee and make sure Maddie gets a shot, but I never correct Jack for taking it. I just distract him and get it back off him. Otherwise, they are on their own. If one steals from the other and looks to me, I say "Sorry, you let go of it!" Honestly it took me awhile to adjust to the fact that my sweet smart boy who I love so much is such a bully with toys! But now I'm used to it.
New dogs should have zero freedom til they earn it. When we got Maddie, the breeder said "Treat her like a puppy for at least the first two weeks" and so we did. She was confined quite a lot. She was harassing Jack when he'd play by trying to mount him continuously, and Jack (unused to living with other dogs, though well-socialized) only corrected her half-heartedly and she didn't listen to him. Since she's the naturally more submissive dog this was a problem and a nuisance. I called the breeder who surprised me by saying something along the lines of "Put her away, give her freedom when she earns it." So I would lock her up when I wanted to play with Jack in the house. Were she the more dominant dog trying to assert herself I would have likely handled it differently.
Anyway, sounds like Franklin may be destined not to be top dog. I know you describe Kirby as submissive, and while he may be, it sounds like he's fearful of people and with other dogs he's still exhibiting some puppy behavior, but not terribly submissive. He probably picks up on Franklin's "I'm not really in charge here, Melissa is" vibe and sees a vacuum and is filling that space. Since he's an insecure dog, he is not handling his top-dog role well and so overreacts to minor frustrations. Without seeing any of it, of course, I'm just speculating. But it sounds like you may need to run a really tight ship til things settle down. Remember, the insecure ones need you to be a constant, firm leader even more than the bossy ones because they lack the security to be in charge themselves. When Maddie came here, Jack tried to back up all my rules (no going upstairs for no reason, no jumping on the couch when people are eating) and more or less laid down the law in a "Hey, we don't do that around here!" sort of way. Other than the mounting him while playing issue, she otherwise deferred to him constantly. It sounds like Franklin has not made it clear that he's going to be the boss, and he may very well not ever do that.
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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on
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Melissa, I would not interfere in the interaction between the dogs regarding toys, unless you see signs of aggression. If Franklyn has a more submissive nature than Kirby, that will not be changed by anything you do, but you can back Franklyn up if he decides to stands his own ground.. Ultimately, from all that you've posted, Kirby may not be the right fit for your home....
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Izzy likes to take toys that she really doesn't want just so nobody else can have them. Sparty just likes to steal from Misty. If they all get carried away I take the toys, they are all mine anyway! It probably is still too soon to have a clear idea of who Kirby is yet. It takes a rehomed dog quite awhile to settle in. The loss of freedom is a good idea due to the aggression issues and will reinforce your leadership role. Classes will really help the two of you bond and professional advice is always helpful. Franklin sounds like he will be helpful in making this all work out, so that is good.
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Yeah I want to at least give hiim several months to settle in and let him and Franklin figure out what's what. I had initially given him a little more freedom because from the get go he had earned it. He was reliable with potty training, he and franklin had got along great, he didn't destroy anything in the house, never chased the cats, etc. So he had earned full freedom when I was around (because he always stayed in the room where I was and generally just slept or wrestled with Franklin) and I locked him in an ex-pen when I was gone. When I was leaving for short periods (like a quick trip to the store) he was left out because he had escaped is ex-pen a couple times when I was gone and left no destruction lol. But now with this new aggression I'm going to have to lock him up again and leash him to me until he earns his freedom again. He's such a weird combo of submissive/dominant that I can't quite figure him out. I honestly don't think he knows which he wants to be at this point either. Franklin doesn't seem to care either way as long as he still gets his cuddles and dinner on time! Lol.
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Permalink Reply by Chris, Kadi & Brodie on
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Sorry if I missed this information, but have these boys been neutered? If either one of them isn't that could be playing into the problem. I know you work with animals for a living and you know this, but sometimes it's those basic little things we forget to think about.
Beyond that, it sounds to me like Kirby doesn't recognize you as the Alpha yet and so he's trying for that spot. He's the one you need to make the point with. Letting them fight it out won't establish that. You need to work with things like making sure he doesn't go for his food the instant you put it down. Basic things like that will go a long way in establishing who is boss.
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Yes they are both neutered. Although Kirby was neutered the day before I got him so maybe he sitll has some stray hormones.
He isn't allowed to dive for his food, I make him sit and stay until I release him. I agree though that he doesn't quite see me as in charge. He is really fearful of me (and any human) but I don't think that fearfulness translates to me being in charge. He does listen to me, but in some situations he will just look at me and ignore me. I will definitely be working with him one on one to teach him I'm in charge and there's no need to be fearful of me. Crossing my fingers that more focus on him and his training will help with these issues.
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