Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Ludi on August 18, 2012 at 7:04pm

I often find myself wishing I could be more like you on this forum, Beth. You manage to say things so well without showing your temper, and I am pretty much the polar opposite. Living in France has made me as emotional and exuberant (and obnoxious) as their people! ;-D

I have also seen that puppy mill practice at work in France. There is an ENORMOUS compound you can see on Google Maps with a huge Royal Canin banner draped over the gates. You can catch a glimpse of 2 barn-like structures with wire cages inside. A quick check on the corresponding address showed that these people breed something like well over 30 different breeds in that compound. But they do their business "family-style" - unsuspecting homes housing these puppies who then put up ads on sites equivalent to Craigslist or the personal ads. It's such an awful scheme... and it works. Really disheartening.

As for what should and shouldn't be bred, I definitely do not think that only show dogs should be bred. In fact, I have a pretty big thorn in my side about conformation shows for MANY breeds. Such unhealthy, over-exaggerated traits are being heralded as the second coming in some breeds, particularly molossoids or brachycephalic-types, that it is impossible to say whether these dogs truly are the best specimen of the breed. But it's when we discuss the breeding of purely pet dogs that I find my patience being tested. So many dogs are in shelters and being put down because they were brought into the world by well-meaning people who just didn't realize what problems breeding their pet could create. At least if a dog is actively involved in a discipline, or showing, or has been thoroughly health-tested (both with X-Rays and genetic panels) you can guess that the person planning to breed it will have read up on the pros and cons of the matter. Too much thoughtlessness goes into breeding dogs nowadays - and it's not us who end up paying. The dogs on Death Row do. I know not ALL "homegrown" litters end up in shelters, but it's a very real possibility.

The person from whom I am planning to buy my BC has one bitch from working lines, some dogs of which are titled in Herding. She also has one Labrador bitch from field lines, and happens to show the Lab. I took great care in picking her, even though her BC is largely an active pet who occasionally helps her with the sheep out front. Both the dam and sire have had their hips graded as A, are clear for all recessively-passed genetic diseases, and have had their eyes tested within two months of the breeding and passed with flying colours. The sire is from a well-known working line of BCs back in Wales, and was imported to France to bring in new blood to the lines here. It is an example of a homegrown breeder I would be proud to support.

I would be less irate with the situation in THIS thread if the dog weren't from a pet store. I still have my huge doubts about breeding a pet, but at least the OP is doing her part and knows what testing needs to be done. On that note I commend her. But his unknown provenance is a HUGE red flag to any responsible breeder/supporter thereof.

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Permalink Reply by Marcie on August 18, 2012 at 6:36pm

I debated whether or not to post, but I have to say it. I agree with Ludi. A pet store puppy should not be intentionally bred. A reputable breeder will not release AKC paperwork unless the puppy goes to a show home, or they receive a spay/neuter certificate.

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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on August 19, 2012 at 10:13am

I also agree with the others here.  Please do not breed your dog.  What are you going to do with the other 7 dogs from the litter?  You said you want offspring, but are you prepared to raise all of them, or what are your plans?  My personal opinion is that there are enough unwanted dogs put down in this world to warrant only RESPONSIBLE breeders, and those should be well licensed and followed.  

The cold hard fact is that your dog came from a puppy mill.  Have you ever seen the conditions in these places?  There are videos on YouTube.  I have a puppy mill rescue.  His feet are splayed from standing on wire cages the first 5 years of his life.  He has arthritis.  He also looks completely different from my female corgi, who came from a responsible breeder.  This alone tells you the genetics.  Jackson is on the left, Seanna on the right.

I don't think any of us are personally attacking you (at least not in the beginning), but some of us are very passionate about responsible breeding, as we are directly involved in the aftermath of irresponsible breeders.  It's just not fair to the animals.  If your dog came from a situation like this (which it probably did), then the health repercussions to the animal are just not fair.  You wouldn't deliberately bring a child into the world knowing when you bred them that they would definitely have a health condition--so please don't do it to an innocent animal.  I totally understand wanting the offspring of a beloved dog (I truly do), but the reality is that environment also plays into the outcome of a dog.  Just because the genetics are the same, the attitude may be nothing like the original.  I wanted to keep my beloved Dillon around me forever.  I even thought about having him stuffed so he could still sleep with me every night--seriously.  I was a little delusional and overcome with grief.  Luckily my husband talked me out of it!

So all we are saying, is that breeding is best left to those who are doing it only to better the breed.  We aren't talking about making one master race, we're talking about breeding to create a better genetic line.  My own opinion, is please don't do it.

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Permalink Reply by Sebastian on August 22, 2012 at 11:24pm

Your dog are really cute! How old are they?

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Permalink Reply by Chris Payerl on August 19, 2012 at 12:06pm

We adopted our first corgi from a responsible breeder because my husband had never had good experiences with dogs growing up and he wanted to be able to see both parents. We were able to meet both parents and "grandma" and "aunt" who were all great dogs. Once we got our pup, we thought it would be fun to get her registered just for kicks. We already knew we weren't going to show her and would get her spayed once she was old enough. We had to sign a document saying that we would not breed her and would return her to the breeder before the breeder would even consider selling her to us. She told us NO responsible breeder would ever sell pups at a pet shop and that most require you to return the dog to them if you can no longer care for it. We sent in the necessary paperwork, including documentation of her lineage which was provided by the breeder, and got the certificate from the AKC within a month or so.

I suspect that if you are having trouble getting the certificate, that might mean that the documentation you sent in was not accepted by the AKC for whatever reason. The application fee is just that; it's a fee to cover paperwork costs, not a guarantee that you will get the certificate. You can't buy the certificate. Maybe your dog's parents were not registered, or not enough generations were registered, or whatever. Just because the breeder says the parents are full-blooded, pedigreed, and health checked does not mean you can get an AKC certificate; the AKC requires specific documentation. Did the pet shop give your the breeder's contact info? Did you check the breeder out prior to buying Wheatley? Did the breeder give you an AKC certified copy of the pup's lineage going back at least 4 generations? Is the breeder returning any of your calls? If no to any of these questions, that is a red flag in my opinion. The pups very well might be purebred corgis (or maybe not -- you can't know without the documentation from the breeder) but that does not mean an automatic AKC certificate.  I'm just offering this as a possible explanation; I don't know your specific situation. I do know that we had no problem at all with our first dog whose lineage and health status was well documented, even though we had no intention of showing or breeding her.

We adopted our second corgi from rescue, so no registry for her ---  who knows where she came from? ;-) --- but we love her just the same! There are so many sweet corgis waiting to be rescued, please consider going that route to get a sweet dog rather than breeding. You are better able to get a sweet dog from rescue if you adopt an adult dog whose personality is already proven. Just because the sire is sweet doesn't guarantee the pups will be sweet. Are you really prepared (physically, monetarily, emotionally, psychologically, etc) to raise and care for a litter (4, 5, 6, or ????) dogs for 12 to 15 years, if you are not planning to sell them? Then, if you don't want to spay/neuter, caring for all of their pups for 12 more years?  Besides that, what if the dam's owner wants to sell the pups? Please neuter this pup and get another sweet corgi from a rescue group, especially since it appears that Wheatley is not AKC material and you may never know whether he is related to any dam you might breed him to. There is so much more to consider before breeding a dog than whether or not it is "sweet." There are other health issues to consider, even in mating pairs that are not related. Unless you know your pup's and the mate's detailed health and genetic histories, it would be irresponsible to breed, in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Zigward & Kimberly on August 19, 2012 at 12:06pm

I can't believe you insinuated Ludi was Hitler, and you called her rude.

Ludi is a very nice person, with an amazingly well behaved dog, because she knows what she is doing, and has clearly done more research. You should listen to her advice.

It's selfish to have a litter of puppies just because you like your dog, without any other reasoning, without even knowing where he came from. My aunt breeds for the same thing, and I find it despicable. I do love my aunt, but that is just not how it should be.

Also, stop trying to fool yourself. Research reputable breeders, ones that show and have champion dogs, email them or call them and ask them if they would ever, ever sell a puppy to a puppy store. The answer will be no, every single time. That doesn't mean that your dog isn't a great one, it just means that he's not from a good breeder, plain and simple.

I agree that not all dogs have to show to be bred, but they should be standard, and they should have registry, health testing, their breeder should know their genetic/temperamental background, a good temperament (which sounds like the only thing that Wheatley has that he should to be bred) and much, much more.

I wasn't even going to comment and say this, because I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, and not what you asked, but you did NOT have to make the Hitler comment, it was insanely rude, and insanely immature. so I don't really feel bad for pushing my opinion on you now, like I would have before.

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Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on August 19, 2012 at 12:25pm

I just want to add that many top breeders started out with a pet quality ( as compared to breeding quality ) dog in their breed of choice and that the love and admiration for this first dog is what got them interested in learning more about the breed of their wonderful friend and companion.  They took the dog through obedience classes, matches and competition, enjoyed agility, got them to be part of visiting dogs to hospitals and nursing homes, took them to show and tell at their kids schools and included them in family activities.  As they learned more about their breed, most found a mentor, a well respected breeder who was willing to help a serious newcomer learn the ropes.  They bought a second dog to fit their new intentions and things progressed from there.  That first dog remains an essential stepping stone, but if you stop there, you shortchange the animals as well as yourself because what you are doing is just making more dogs and millions are put to sleep every year.  Go to any shelter and look those dogs in the eye and tell me we need more litters of pups, just because it seemed a good idea at the time.  Many on this site have done rescue work for years and have heard and seen too much to swallow your cavalier approach to breeding.

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Permalink Reply by Kevan hudson on August 19, 2012 at 1:48pm

Things must be a bit different down there in the U.S. when I got Benson I had to sign a contract with the breeder, the contract clearly states no breeding. We had to have Ben neutered ,send a copy of neuter certificate to the breeder then she transferred his registration to us.If we wanted to breed him the breeder would have been coowner until his third birthday or neutering.as for checking his reg. I simply entered his ckc mchip number on their website and it gave me his info.does the Akc not have something similar?

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Permalink Reply by Shippo & Koga Corgis on August 19, 2012 at 4:50pm

I could have missed this, but did this pet store tell you exactly where they get their puppies?  The exact source?  Do you have a genetic history for the dogs in his pedigree?  I'm also gonna have to be on the bandwagon of not breeding pet store puppies.  I don't believe pet stores should even sell puppies, not because I'm being snobby, but because of where they come from and what they can pass on.  Poor puppy mill parent dogs languishing in cages, pumping out offspring till they die. No health/genetic testing.  No proper vet care.  It's a terrible cycle.  So much suffering. =(

Shippo comes from a show breeder.  Both his parents are conformation champions, and his mother is working toward an agility title.  He has an amazing temperament and structure.  I love him to pieces and he gorgeous!  But he's a fluffy.  So his breeder sold him to me on a strict neuter contract.  Just cause he's beautiful and sweet is not a good reason to breed him.  Breeding of corgis should definitely be to better the breed.  To produce healthy offspring without any genetic defects, who can excel in the show ring or in the field - or both.  

You should know the history of both parents before breeding, or you could pass on something horrible to the puppies.  Have both his parents been tested for all the genetic problems that corgis can have?  He will need to be tested as well when he's old enough.  This is very important.  Some genetic problems can be debilitating and/or fatal.

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Permalink Reply by Wind Dial on August 21, 2012 at 6:28pm

I could elaborate a lot more about the finer points of USDA vs. private breeder but I'm going to keep it simple.  You do realize Corgis tend to have fairly large litters for their size.  You say you want to keep the puppies?  Do you really want 10 dogs in your house?   Corgi litter sizes COMMONLY result in 7-10 puppy litters.  They are also prone to whelping (birthing) problems and quite routinely need c-sections which in your neck of the woods are quite costly.  They  also quite commonly have milk production problems requiring tube feeding of the puppies. 

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Permalink Reply by Alison Prasavath on August 22, 2012 at 3:26pm

When we got Noodles, we didn't receive a copy of his pedigree until we sent her proof that Noodles had been neutered. Once she received that information is when we received a copy of his pedigree from both his mom and dad's side (you should see some of the creative names!). Noodles was just over 6 months old when he was neutered and once I mailed Lisa the paperwork, it probably took another 2 weeks before I got the pedigree and we live in the same state (snail mail takes a while). It wasn't something that was important to me, but it is nice to have and it is in Noodles baby book with all his other important information (yes, I have a baby book for him since he is my baby).

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Permalink Reply by AmandaFay, Brendan and Wheatley on August 27, 2012 at 11:30am

I just wanted to update this discussion, even though it has gone WAY off topic. 

I finally was able to get through on the phone, and there wasn't an issue with his pedigree, just that apparently someone's handwriting wasn't very legible. 

The unreadable character was corrected and his 5 generation lineage is on it's way. I suppose I jumped the gun on questioning the  time frame. 

Thank you for the replies. 

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