Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 6, 2009 at 10:07pm

I was googling information about raw bones, and I found this post from a biologist and thought of the food threads we have here, and the people who try to base diet on what wolves eat.

Now, I think I mentioned in another thread that dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years, and it has been taht long since they ate what wolves eat. Look at a Dachshund, compare it to a wolf, and then think about how much their digestive systems have probably changed if their physical appearance and personality have changed so much. And then I read this description of wolves eating and defecating habits, and I am pretty darned sure none of us wants this for our beloved dogs. Well, maybe some of us do, but I don't.

"I'm responding to a forward from John Glowa, MWC re: raw bones being fed to
dogs. Without researching scientific papers on this subject in regard to
wild canids encountering problems with them, I can only relate to you what
I know from my experience/observations with helping raise 4 captive wolves
for the International Wolf Center. I'm a wildlife biologist in Maine and
the Maine field representative for the IWC. Wolves, and likely the other
wild canids that you mentioned, have a mechanism that protects their
internal organs when they pass the bones of wild animals through their
systems. The first feces produced after a kill are very dark and quite
liquid-like with little form; it looks to us like diarrhea. Wolves don't
necessarily eat everyday and so the subsequent feces often reflects the
same kill. The next time they defecate, the feces is still dark but has
more form. With each defecation, the feces becomes lighter in color and
contains more substance. Because they often eat the entire animal that
they kill, they ingest a lot of hair. Towards the final defecations
involving the same kill, hair can be seen in the feces actually wrapped
tightly around any bones that are passed through. This seems to protect
the organs/passageways as the bones are eliminated. You welcome to contact
the IWC at www.wolf.org or by calling them at 1/800/ELY-WOLF...."

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html


Blech!

Permalink Reply by Linsey & Grissom on August 6, 2009 at 10:14pm

Keep in mind that I have a control over what my dogs eat. What percent muscle meat, bone, and organ meat. How much they eat at a sitting, and when they eat.
I'm sure if I threw down a whole beef heart or liver Grissom would GLADLY eat the whole thing, and then have a series of darker, runnier stools. Having common sense and all, I don't do that. Problem solved. I also do not feed them whole carcases (though I know MANY people on a few raw forums who do without problem) therefore solving the fur problem.
I'm not claiming that there are ZERO downsides to raw. All I claim is that it has worked for every dog of mine. I had a Beagle that developed epilepsy at age three. Had multiple siezures a month, and after going raw at age ten had none for the remaining five years of his life, which ended two days ago. I have a Shepherd Mix that was diagnosed with a growth plate disorder at five months, as well as issues building muscle, and has had no such problems since going raw. Grissom is still young, and has no problems that need solving, but he's absolutely thriving. It works for me, I feel it is the best choice for me and my dogs, and I will stick to that.
I believe in a species-appropriate, highly-digestable diet and that means no corn, soy, wheat, or beet pulp. Dogs are carnivores. Plain and simple.

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 6, 2009 at 10:20pm

And all the dogs in my extended family eat Iam's. and all are healthy and look fabulous and have shiny coats and all the rest. :-)

To each his own.

Permalink Reply by Avyon on August 6, 2009 at 10:24pm

We read the labels and ended up buying Wellness CORE for our pups. When they have a sale we get a few cans of the wellness wet food as well to give them a treat with their dry food. Though they've learned its not an always thing.

If we end up getting better incomes in the future we may look into the raw food diet for these guys.

Im too selfish though and still don't believe my dog should eat better then me ;) Though I do believe that what they eat is healthy. So if I can afford it for myself I should be able to afford it for them too.

Just like a real family hahah.

Permalink Reply by Linsey & Grissom on August 6, 2009 at 10:27pm

You'd be suprised at how affordable raw can be. I spend less on raw than I did feeding Innova, which is very comparable to Wellness.

I'm definately guilty of my dogs eating better then me. I can't help it! They deserve it.
Maybe someday I'll make more and eat as good as they do! haha!

Permalink Reply by Karen Stasky on August 6, 2009 at 10:49pm

And add to this the price of a vet visit (but we do appreciate the business) because of chronic ailments, feeding raw comes out cheaper in the long-run. A species appropriate diet builds up the immune system, helping them to fight off all kinds of health issues-I also feed my dogs better food than I eat, but they're inspriring me to eat better-less meat, more veggies-sigh...;-)

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 6, 2009 at 10:55pm

I think I understand the reason why the grain-free and raw-food conversations drive me bonkers.

It's blanket statements like "grain is bad for dogs because they don't eat it in the wild" (yet they eat sweet potatoes and spinach? really?) and "you'll save money on vet visits by avoiding all the chronic aliments that come from feeding pet-store brands" etc, etc.

I suppose it does not sound it to those doing the speaking, but it comes across as casting judgement on all us poor slobs who actually took our vets' and breeders' advice on food, and I have seen no scientific studies backing up these claims, just hear-say from those pushing the diets.

I have had several people, in real life or online, saying "I would never feed my dog that food because it's crap" without asking the listener if they feed that food, or how they feel about it.

The not-so-subtle message is that it's beyond proven that grain-free, or better yet raw diets, are the best possible thing for our dogs, and if we do not feed that, then we are not doing what is best. Unless of course we are so poor that we can only afford Eukanuba.

Permalink Reply by Avyon on August 6, 2009 at 11:10pm

When we first got roxi we fed her the cheaper stuff (we were just out of college and still poor hehe) but as we could afford it we slowly upgraded her food.

I understand what you're saying. I personally just want to do raw food because it is healthier in the sense its the difference btw mcdonalds and organic foods. If I want to eat all organic one day then I want my dog to (yes we could get into the long debate on what organic really is.. I know the issue atm about ppl labeling organic at the moment and it really isn't) Im just using it as an example.

As for humans.. we are living longer due to learning about how eating habits and other things can keep us healthy longer. Its probably the same to say about our pets. While what they understand in the wild and what they eat in the wild keeps them alive.. there may be vitamins in the greeny food they naturally dont eat that may keep them alive and healthy longer. vitamins that they may have gotten in the wild through different means that they cant get now.. or never got but will still help them in the end.

By this I'm saying too much is a bad thing.. but if you find the right balance for your dog go for it..

I try to avoid the elitists on things.. if you want to do one thing go for it.. but don't snub others because they do it differently.. say your advice and thats that.. unless they're really abusing their pets hahah.

Im sorry if this makes little sense.. Im a little tired atm.

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 7, 2009 at 7:16am

Thank you, and yes I do know where you are coming from! I get a little passionate on my own side of the debate because I see people making claims that seem logical on their face but don't stand up when you look at them. The perfect example is "I won't feed grain because "wild" dogs don't eat grain. I'll feed sweet potatoes and spinach". Wild dogs would very rarely eat those either. We make a judgement call that some things wild dogs don't eat must be bad, and some sound good. It seems to have risen in parallel to the Atkins Diet, which I am also not a fan of but which seems to work for some people. Others get terribly sick on it because of too much protein/lack of carbs.

Just a few points to ponder:

1) Dogs most certainly are not wolves. Look at them and its obvious. They are thousands of generations removed from wolves, and very carefully selectively bred. And it's not just on the outside: wolves, for example, regurgitate food for pups. Dogs do not. There are critical biological differences therefore as well. But lets stick with the wolf analogy anyway.

2) People have, in general, a skewed sense of what evolution does. Just because wolves DO survive on whole meats and bone and fur does not mean that's the "best" diet for them. It means that food is tough to come by, so they eat all of what they kill. They also scavenge, and eat the greenstuff from their kills. Wolves also eat feces from herbivores, a trait shared by our dogs. I don't think most raw food proponents include that, though some might! :-)

3) Have you seen pictures or videos of wild wolves? Most of them are in poor condition. Evolution dictates that a species is successful if its reproduction rate matches or exceeds its die-off rate. Therefore, most wild animals of most species do not live into old age, and don't need to worry much about old-age diseases such as cancer, kidney failure, etc. Many are of poor weight, often they don't have a good coat, and certainly they are not expected to live healthily into their old years. When we look at a wolf in poor condition, why do we assume that its circumstances are the "best."

4) Let's look at some critters we perhaps have more personal experience with. Deer: in the northern half of the country, a white-tailed deer's "natural" diet in winter is mostly bark and twigs. It's not because these things are good for deer. It's just that there is not much left for an herbivore to choose from, so this is how they survive. Feed a deer high-quality feed in winter IF its gut bacteria has already changed over to the bark diet, and it will die because it will starve to death with a full belly. BUT if you start deer on supplemental feeding of grain and hay early enough in the fall, fed deer will thrive over the ones eating bark and twigs. Bark and twigs are the natural diet, but that doesn't make them the best diet. It means, according to the laws of evolution, that deer can survive on that diet well enough that their reproduction rate meets or exceeds their die-off rate. Other animals can't digest bark at all, so deer have filled that niche, but they do much better on real food.

Rabbits. I have seen lots of wild rabbits, and every single pet rabbit fed a pelleted diet that I have ever seen looks a darn sight better than any single wild rabbit. Wild rabbits are thin and nervous and twitchy. Their coats don't look that great. Domestic rabbits are fat and glossy with bright eyes and better teeth. Wild rabbits eat primarily weeds and seeds in summer, and again those twigs in winter, but rabbits do better on commercial diets than their wild kin.

In fact, most domestic animals look better and live into old age better than their wild kin. Vet care and vaccines are part of it, but so is diet.

5) Finally, of course it's true that wild canids don't usually eat grains. They do eat partially digested ones from the tummies of their kills, though. They don't eat grains because wild canids, like people, lack the digestive mechanisms that birds and grazers have which allow them to break down the outer seed hull and get to the nutrients inside. It doesn't mean the nutrients inside are "bad" for them; it means they can't utilize them because of the seed coats and so they pass through.

Humans with our opposable thumbs and big brains have found mechanical methods to break down the outer hulls and reach the more digestible stuff inside. Once we were able to do that, we were able to digest the grain, and so can our dogs who have been domesticated dating back likely to the time we came up with the clever idea to make meals and flours out of grains. They've been eating these foods for thousands of years.


Ok, so if someone tells me that they feed grain-free because their dog has allergies, or a sensitive tummy, or whatever, I think that's great! Good for you! Just as someone with celiac disease must avoid grains. Grains are bad for them, but if someone with celiac disease says "grains are bad for PEOPLE" I will not pay much attention after that.

However, anyone who says they won't feed grains because "dogs" don't eat grains in the wild, and then feeds a diet heavy in potatoes, immediately makes he scratch my head because wild dogs might certainly eat a potato if they found it, but it is no more a large part of a wild canid's natural diet than grain is.

To me, that is marketing success just as much as Beneful's pretty pictures of chicken breasts are. If you can try to convince someone like me, whose dog thrives on Iam's, that I should pay $30 for a bag of food when my dog is in perfect health on $20 food, then that is a marketing triumph.

Permalink Reply by Karen Stasky on August 6, 2009 at 11:13pm

I'm not casting judgement at all-if I didn;t work in the field and have seen the difference over and over again in hundreds of dogs, I wouldn't be out there working to educate people to make the best choice for them-raw is not for everyone. In our growing practice, educating our clients on better diets for their pets is a large part of my job-if I can get people to switch from Ol' Roy to a grain-based food without corn or wheat and no meat byproducts, I've done well for them and their dog.

Permalink Reply by Beth on August 7, 2009 at 6:57am

But that kinda is my point; I can find you vets online who say they have seen a big rise in kidney disease among elderly dogs on high-protein grainless formulas, for example. I found another person who says they've seen in their opinion an increase in bad coats and overweight dogs with these high-protein high-calorie performance formulas being bred to dogs that get walked 'round the block.

It's not science at this point, it is just opinion. And I wouldn't feed Ol' Roy either; most of its protein comes from vegetable sources or grain.

Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on August 7, 2009 at 12:16am

Hi Everyone,

You know I never thought that this would turn out to be such a large discussion. My goal was to inform people that there is a wide variety of foods out there and that some are better than others but in the end we need to decide what is right for us and our 4 legged family members. Just as we as humans decide what we eat there are many people that have no idea what is in the food that they consume but the "word" natural sounds healthy!There are many factors to our choices $$$ being a major one. There is no right/wrong...but there may be "better" for $$$. If we were just to see the ads and make judgements on what to feed our loved ones (whether people or pets) we could possibly be swayed by many of these ads but if we read the labels and discuss without judging then we can each make our decisions based on what we believe is best for us. There are many factors to consider and years ago I never would have thought of what was in the dog food I bought but we also have many more deceptive companies trying to get our bussiness and how do we make informed decisions if we don't read labels (not that this explains it all) or have discussions.I appreciate each and every discussion as I feel that I have learned several things and that I am the only one who can now decide what I want to do with that info and what's right for me and my family! Thanks for all your input!

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