Introducing an Adult Part 2: Now with update!
Madison has been with us three weeks now, and I am uncertain about a few things.
As I mentioned in earlier posts, she was here on a trial from the breeder where we got Jack. We've had Jack since he's a puppy and he's nearly two-and-a-half. He has always loved other dogs, there are very few he meets who don't respond with enthusiasm to his overtures, and given a choice he'd prefer dog company to human company.
Madison is going on 5. She came from a show breeder with a lot of dogs, but she was a housedog who had the run of the house all day and was also loose in the house at night.
She has fit in fine with the human part of our household, and warmed up very quickly. She loves walks and cuddles on the couch. She mind us and is easy to handle; I've brushed her and cleaned her teeth, she will wait when I put down her food bowl, she is good on the leash and in the car.
However, she seems to almost completely ignore Jack most of the time. He was like a kid at Christmas when we brought her home; the first morning when we let her out of the crate, he got this gleeful look on his face like "She's still here!!!" When I would come home from work and let her out, he'd run to see her before he'd come to see me.
She, however, has not returned the favor. She walks right past him most of the time as if he weren't there. She ignores his invitations to play, does not sniff him, will only briefly touch noses when he initiates the maneuver but then trots away. He will move to be closer to her when they are dozing and napping during the day, but she does not seem to do the same.
I thought Jack might be jealous of us giving attention to another dog, but the opposite has become true: Jack will wait patiently while I brush her, pet her, or clean her teeth. The most he will do is come and lie next to me. Madison tries to nudge her way in between me and Jack if I am doing something with him and constantly needs to be told to wait her turn.
And now as I mentioned in detail in another thread, she has started mounting him whenever he tries to play. He'll back her off and she goes right back at him. If I stop her, she will stop but then starts again next time he's playing. And when he finally got tired of it and growled at her (first time I ever heard him growl at another dog) she snarled back at him.
Is this a sign of things to come, or just a transition period? I will be honest: part of the reason I wanted another dog was to be a playmate for Jack, and Maddie so far shows zero interest in playing with him. There has not been a single game of chase or wrestling since she's been here. The first couple weeks I figured she was lacking confidence, and that seemed to be the case as she would look a little unsure if he'd barrel past. I can understand that, as she's in a new environment and probably was missing the dog friends she had (several of whom were actually her siblings).
But as she has gained confidence, things seem to be heading in the wrong direction between her and Jack. I have read other posters who introduced a new dog and the two were playing within a day or two.
Is it reasonable to expect the situation would improve after they adjust to each other? Or is it (as I fear) a bad sign that she seems intent on pretending he does not exist, except to try to halt his own efforts to play?
I need to call Kandy and talk to her, but I have been ill the past two days and am not quite up to a long phone conversation today; hopefully I can talk to her tomorrow.
As I mentioned in earlier posts, she was here on a trial from the breeder where we got Jack. We've had Jack since he's a puppy and he's nearly two-and-a-half. He has always loved other dogs, there are very few he meets who don't respond with enthusiasm to his overtures, and given a choice he'd prefer dog company to human company.
Madison is going on 5. She came from a show breeder with a lot of dogs, but she was a housedog who had the run of the house all day and was also loose in the house at night.
She has fit in fine with the human part of our household, and warmed up very quickly. She loves walks and cuddles on the couch. She mind us and is easy to handle; I've brushed her and cleaned her teeth, she will wait when I put down her food bowl, she is good on the leash and in the car.
However, she seems to almost completely ignore Jack most of the time. He was like a kid at Christmas when we brought her home; the first morning when we let her out of the crate, he got this gleeful look on his face like "She's still here!!!" When I would come home from work and let her out, he'd run to see her before he'd come to see me.
She, however, has not returned the favor. She walks right past him most of the time as if he weren't there. She ignores his invitations to play, does not sniff him, will only briefly touch noses when he initiates the maneuver but then trots away. He will move to be closer to her when they are dozing and napping during the day, but she does not seem to do the same.
I thought Jack might be jealous of us giving attention to another dog, but the opposite has become true: Jack will wait patiently while I brush her, pet her, or clean her teeth. The most he will do is come and lie next to me. Madison tries to nudge her way in between me and Jack if I am doing something with him and constantly needs to be told to wait her turn.
And now as I mentioned in detail in another thread, she has started mounting him whenever he tries to play. He'll back her off and she goes right back at him. If I stop her, she will stop but then starts again next time he's playing. And when he finally got tired of it and growled at her (first time I ever heard him growl at another dog) she snarled back at him.
Is this a sign of things to come, or just a transition period? I will be honest: part of the reason I wanted another dog was to be a playmate for Jack, and Maddie so far shows zero interest in playing with him. There has not been a single game of chase or wrestling since she's been here. The first couple weeks I figured she was lacking confidence, and that seemed to be the case as she would look a little unsure if he'd barrel past. I can understand that, as she's in a new environment and probably was missing the dog friends she had (several of whom were actually her siblings).
But as she has gained confidence, things seem to be heading in the wrong direction between her and Jack. I have read other posters who introduced a new dog and the two were playing within a day or two.
Is it reasonable to expect the situation would improve after they adjust to each other? Or is it (as I fear) a bad sign that she seems intent on pretending he does not exist, except to try to halt his own efforts to play?
I need to call Kandy and talk to her, but I have been ill the past two days and am not quite up to a long phone conversation today; hopefully I can talk to her tomorrow.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Yes, I was thinking that too! I'm sure as a show dog she was trained to ignore other dogs (else how would they get through the show without wanting to meet-and-greet first?). So to suddenly be expected to interact with other dogs must be a bit confusing. We have been introducing her to as many dogs as we can, but at this time of year there are not as many people out and about as high summer. She sometimes snarks a little if someone crowds her, so we're making sure she meets dogs we know to be stable. She is, we have discovered, fabulous with puppies! They can bounce right on her in a way she does not appreciate from adults.
We had a major breakthrough just now on our walk through the park. On the way out, Jack and Maddie were trotting along next to each other and they did that sort of parallel jump at each other's shoulders with mouths open and grinning thing that dogs do. So on the way back, Jack found a squashed-up tennis ball. We let them off leash when we reached an open area and started to run after Jack to play "chase" and Maddie went running right after him. Chased him around in big circles and everything! I was sooooo happy. It also occurred to me that at her old home, since there were so many they may have been discouraged from playing too much inside, yet when we were outside she was clingy and would stay right by us so playing chase with Jack was not really going to happen. Now she's much more confident and willing to leave our sides.
So it seems they have made a breakthrough, and Jack may end up with a bit of a playmate after all! I don't think she'll wrestle with him, which he loves, but we know enough other dogs he can do that with.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Love the photo of the two of them! It sounds like things are improving well. Girls (my observation) are a little moodier than the boys so I am not surprised she is playing coy with Jack. So far they seem pretty compatible but mostly because Jack is easy going. I have found with mine that it really helps that Izzy's energy is so much milder than Sparty's.
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Yes, she is definitely moodier and the breeders I have dealt with have all said that with this breed, the males are easier (with some other breeds the opposite is true).
Jack IS easy-going, even though he's fairly dominant, which helps. He lets her boss him around sometimes, but when push comes to shove it's clear who is really in charge. For example, I was practicing recall with them the other day in an open field. Jack does long stays but Maddie does not, so my husband held the leash while I walked the length of the field. SInce they know a treat is coming, when I say "come come come" they come running at full speed. The were pretty evenly matched and keeping pace with each other, which Jack did not really like. He turned and budged her shoulder once, and she immediately dropped well back and let him win. Yet if she snarks at him in the house, he lets her be. He's very tolerant.
He is VERY possessive of his toys, though. One thing that helped is that since he was little, I have been diligent in convincing him everything in the house is mine. Outside, he might get a little growly if someone moves in on his stuff. In the house, though, if she has something he wants, he looks at me like "Aw, c'mon, let ME have it!" I think if I had just let him have his way from the time he was a pup, he would definitely be willing to fight over food/toys. But I nipped that early, which has made introducing a new dog much easier than it might have been. Even so, it is clear that he is not at all happy when she has one of the toys, so I've been working on distracting him and using positive reinforcement when he ignores her if she has a toy. Thankfully she's not much of a toy girl, so it's not a constant issue.
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I have found that they always want the toy the other one has! It is funny watching three dogs passing toys around at our house. One will chew on a bone and the other two will watch intently waiting for the chance to grab it. (I don't allow them to take from each other) If the one with the toy gets distracted the toy is fair game. Buffy (gone now) figured out how to run to the door and woof which Sparty can not resist so she could run back and get the toy! Pretty amusing!
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Permalink Reply by Judi, Dawn, Soffie & Griffyn on
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Yay!!! Step by step! LOVE the pic of the two of them together on the sofa!
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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There are some very funny assumptions on this thread about show dogs!
A few (fortunately a very few) of the coated dogs live a somewhat limited outdoor life while their coats are being protected, but corgis of either breed are not one of those. I don't know any show breeders of Pems or Cardis who just keep their dogs in crates except for peeing. Most of the time the life of a show-bred corgi is pretty enviable - they play in large groups, they run like crazy, they get dirty and muddy and dig and go crazy. That's what baths are for!
In terms of ignoring other dogs, very definitely not. Showing is a few hours of their lives every few weekends at the absolute most. The rest of the time they live with lots of other dogs. And the only tool most of us use to tell them to leave each other alone is a leash. They don't "ignore" other dogs; they're just more focused on their handler than on the other dogs.
It sounds to me like she's been doing what she's supposed to do as the older bitch with a rude boy. She ignores him and snarks at him if he is bad. That's her job; think of her as the fun police. The older bitches are supposed to be the pack leaders and one of their jobs is to keep the younger dogs in line. If he settles down and initiates play that's gentle and appropriate she'll probably reciprocate. Your breeder is right that you should correct behavior that you find unacceptable but she's mainly just telling him that she's very firmly in charge.
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Joanna,
Thanks for your input, however I am not sure what you mean by play that is gentle and "appropriate."?
Madison was obsessively mounting Jack whenever he tried to play at all, not only if he tried to play with her. He attempts to initiate play mostly by play-bowing and then running off then coming back and play-bowing again. He does like to wrestle but has made no attempts to wrestle with her. Sure she has snarked at some inappropriate behavior, and he immediately learned from that and would not repeat (such as running over the top of her once), but this went well above and beyond that.
He had no problem playing with my aunt's undersized Jack Russell female, who was very submissive and weighed maybe 10 pounds at the time. They mutually decided because of the size difference to play chase, after one or two instances where the Russell initiated wrestling-type behavior and got knocked down pretty quick. So again, I'm not sure what you are referring to as "appropriate" play behavior. Jack has played well with everything from the 10-pound Russells and a small Rat Terrier he knows, up to a very large boxer-labrador mix and everything in between. We won't let him play with anything much bigger or smaller just because we don't want any injuries related to size differences.
As for "ignoring other dogs", I meant while out on a walk on a leash. Since we only had one dog, we frequently stop when out on walks for Jack to meet-and-greet, and often play with, other dogs that are out being walked. Maddie was loose in the house and yard with other dogs. I know that for a fact. However, as I mentioned several of those dogs were from the same litter and she grew up with them. I would be surprised if someone who shows and is generally walking three intact dogs at a time makes a habit of stopping and letting the dogs romp with strange dogs they meet on the way. It's just a different environment and was in no way a criticism of the breeder, who by all accounts does a great job with her dogs and socializes them extensively with kids and the like. However, when we first brought her here she was fine with walking past another dog but very uncomfortable with sniffing and other dog greetings and would snark at that. It seemed to be something she was not really used to.
Jack has not been "rude" to her. When he first met her, he was fascinated because she's intact. He tried to mount her a few times, but after a gentle correction by her he immediately stopped and has not tried again. But no, he's not been rude to her at all. When she was mounting him obsessively, she could be asleep in the other room and if she heard him start to play she'd get up, run over, and go after him. This went well beyond manners corrections.
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Yes, she needs to be corrected for the mounting. That's going way overboard on her part. But in terms of what's appropriate for him, SHE is deciding that. If she had a normal play relationship with other dogs at her breeder's house, she understands how to speak dog. Something that he is doing is not pleasing to her, and she's letting him know that. When he gives her signals that she feels like are the right ones, she'll reward him by reciprocating.
The behavior on walks - yeah, I don't let my dogs play with other dogs on walks. That's not because they're show dogs (two of them are not; I do a lot of rescue and two of ours are "failed fosters"), it's because that's the kind of thing that ends up in fights. Dogs on leash can't give each other the distance signals that they need and can't move in normal dog ways. Leashes also encourage them to protect their owners, which heightens certain defensive moves and can lead to fights. If she was getting mad at other dogs sniffing her, it's because they were acting rude, not because she's never been sniffed.
Normal dog greeting behavior is NOT sniffing face-to-face; it's a series of curves around each other and they end up nose-to-tail IF nobody has said "stop, I'm uncomfortable." Face-to-face is a confrontational posture. Dogs on leash who accept that kind of thing are actually choosing to mistranslate; it's like they've decided that a dog who says "boogedy boogedy, I'm bad" is actually saying "hello." It doesn't make it a normal signal and dogs who choose to hear it as it is actually being said have every right to correct the dog saying it.
There are some really good resources for understanding dog greeting and play behaviors: http://www.nesr.info/images-english-shepherd/He-just-wants-to-say-h... is a great one, and you should also borrow or buy Turid Rugaas' On Talking Terms with Dogs. Canine Body Language by Brenda Aloff is also great, though she doesn't give as many comments about how the dogs are interpreting it.
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I wanted to add that I've read the link you posted before and the info is good. I want to stress again that Jack is well-socialized with other dogs, though he has not lived with one. I have no problem with snarking at inappropriate behavior. She growled at him once for over-exuberant humping and he stopped and never tried again.
He is a very exuberant boy when he plays, and she also snarked at him once for running over the top of her chasing a ball. And again, he never has done it again. In fact if his ball bounces off a wall or something and goes near her, he usually won't even chase it.
She was actually the one not responding to his signals, because he corrected her for mounting him dozens of times and she would not stop, hence my intervention. As I mentioned, though, she is doing better now and I think part of it was that she was out of sorts without her pack, most of whom she was born with and lived with her entire life.
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Oh yes, I know how dogs sniff nose-to-tail. Actually puppies greet faces and about the time they reach sexual maturity, adult dogs start correcting them for that behavior.
We live near a big park and there are many dogs who we meet regularly. We will let them off-leash to play when we are in an appropriate area, but since most of the dogs are friendly with each other already, we do allow greetings when they are leashed. They all know each other. Once they know each other, the sniffing behavior is not so common.
Jack is actually quite dog-savvy and will normally not approach other dogs who are giving off "keep away" signals, no matter how subtle.
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I was curious about this (because I'd never observed it in my own puppies) so I watched my 15-week-old puppy for a long time today. My five dogs all run together; four bitches (three intact) and one dog (neutered). The dog is the only other one I'd call a puppy; he's 16 months old.
I never saw anybody do anything face-on. The puppy is crazy about playing but she always runs up beside the other dog and jumps on his or her shoulder or tries to bite behind the ear or cheek. The young dog will always be enticed into a run; the older bitches sometimes will. The one who had puppies this year doesn't like ANY contact from the puppy that resembles play; she mothers her but absolutely ignores any play overtures and will correct her (bark and bite her) if the puppy insists.
Your on-trial girl sounds completely normal to me, and I very much doubt that her life as a show dog has made her weird in any way (it's just not that common for corgis to be kept as anything but pets-who-also-go-to-shows) but if you're looking for permission to give her back, there's no need. Breeders who place retired dogs want a perfect placement for the dog; if the owner is unhappy for ANY reason, from "she has too much white" to "she won't swim with us," they would much rather have you just give the dog back than look for reasons to keep him or her. So if you're just not feeling like it's meshing, don't force yourself to feel a certain way. Just give her back.
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I didn't say I wanted to give her back, Joanna. I think perhaps you are reading between the lines stuff that is just not there?
As far as puppies greeting the faces of adult dogs, I am confident that is normal puppy behavior and have seen it countless times in many puppies, and have also read that it is normal as puppies will lick adult dogs muzzles in a submissive gesture.
"Your puppy will probably want to jump up at the older dog's face and lick his muzzle. This is very normal, submissive puppy behavior. Your dog may snap or growl. This looks scary but it is also very normal and his way of teaching the puppy manners."
http://www.ehow.com/how_2194673_introduce-puppy-older-resident-dog....
"A puppy greeting an adult dog often licks the adult’s muzzle -- a polite, deferential behavior. "
http://dogtrainer.quickanddirtytips.com/jumping.aspx
Etc.
Generally puppies don't show much interest in sniffing backsides til they start to get an idea of what backsides are for. Adults will tolerate face-jumping and nuzzling from pups, but when the pup starts to hit adolescence they are usually quickly told this is no longer acceptable behavior. Puppies up to social maturity often love to play the "I'll jump on your head!" game as well. Boxers especially love to rear up and paw with their front paws (hence the name "Boxer").
Play bows are also frequently done face-on, and when dogs who are friends see each other from afar they will barrel right towards each other at a dead run and often meet with a leap in the air as they tooth-fence at each other. I think it is an over-generalization to say that all face-to-face postures are confrontational. I have seen well-socialized dogs who are friends and haven't seen each other for awhile come up to each other on their toes with their heads up in excitement and then one will drop down low and play bow and they will be off. Of course dogs that live together and see each other constantly are not as likely to behave this way as doggie friends who might not see each other for a couple weeks at a time.
Jack will also run alongside dogs and jump at their shoulders if a game of chase is going on. Madison has just started doing this with Jack, as I mentioned, and I allowed in my early posts that I thought it was quite possible she was simply missing her former pack and was reluctant to jump right in and make friends with a new dog. She is actually a fairly submissive bitch. As you can see from the posting date, this thread was originally started 2 weeks ago and things have improved quite a lot since then. Maddie is coming more out of her shell and is much bouncier and more playful.
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