The Limp Is Back
I started a discussion a while ago during the limping epidemic that seems to be going on about Finnigan limping ("Another one Bites the Dust"). His limp would come and go and for the last week at least he's been limp free. When I came home at lunch today to take him potty, he hobbled out of his crate and didn't want to walk. His limp is pretty bad and for no apparent reason. We don't have a yard so anytime he is outside we're with him and he hasn't done anything crazy. Besides that, he wasn't limping in the morning so what could have happened to him in his crate? Anyway, I am stumped and worried so tomorrow after work we're taking him to the vet. I was hoping to avoid this because not only is it expensive but how do you know that the diagnosis is correct? I hope it's nothing serious and I really hope he doesn't need surgery but most of all I want him to feel better. It's so sad seeing him limp around and despite his obvious pain, he still wants to play. He'll try to move at a jogging pace but ends up hopping to avoid putting weight on that back right leg. I'll let you all know what the vet says tomorrow. Wish him luck!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alice on
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Joanna,
Finn was in a litter of 6. The first puppy to pass was the smallest and took the longest to be born and didn't seem to be developing right. He died in the first week. The breeder initially thought it was "fading puppy". The next puppy to become ill was in the 2nd week. I don't know the specific symptoms but he made it sound like a violent illness. From there, a puppy would develop symptoms within a couple days of each other and die after about two days of showing symptoms. After the breeder spoke with a vet they suspected canine herpes and the pups were taken away from the mother to prevent them from becoming infected. They were bottle fed and kept ward (maybe where a feeding issue came in) and Finn and one other male survived symptom free. The other puppy was walking normally but Finn wasn't steady on his hind legs and wouldn't bend them when he walked. We went and got Finn at 8 weeks and the other puppy staid with the breeder as a show prospect. A week after we got Finn, the other puppy died (symptoms came suddenly) and it was at this point the breeder suspected Parvo. He thought if the virus were on his property and the puppy gained access to new areas as the mothers antibodies wore off, he may have contracted it. Finn was safe with us. He cleaned everything with bleach and another female had a litter within a month and her and her pups were healthy.
Meanwhile, the vet said Finn's ligaments were week in his hind legs and he needed exercise. He got stronger and was walking and even bending his hind legs but always had a lot of sway in his back end, more than any Cardi I've seen which is why we decided to have his hips x-rayed at 8 months.
He runs and acts normal but still has a lot of sway and he has never been able to jump more than an inch off the ground. All the Corgis I know can jump on the couch, the bed etc but he has never been able to. He has zero spring in those back legs which makes me think he hasn't developed the muscles well. We've been taking him on longer walks and trying to keep a trotting pace. I agree with your exercise recommendation. I'm still very puzzled by it all though because as you said, many Cardis with bad hips do just fine. He seems so young to be in pain because of his hips. Could arthritis even develop this early? The specialist said if the on and off limping persists over the next few weeks she would like to do x-rays to check the knees and everything else that could cause problems.
Sorry this was so long. :)
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Permalink Reply by Judi, Dawn, Soffie & Griffyn on
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Alice, I've been out of town for several days and have been out of touch with my computer. I've been catching up on your posts.
One had asked something about xrays on ligaments. Ligaments don't show up in an xray. But they can do an MRI however it is very costly. It was an option for Soffie when she first injured herself but the surgeon was able to diagnose the tear by the "drawer test".
I also read Beth's post about approaching your breeder for help with Finn's vet bills. And I think she was quite eloquent. I can't imagine anyone not feeling compelled to help if approached in that manner.
I worry about Finn being too active if it could indeed turn out to be a ligament injury. Soffie's recovery relies entirely on restricted activity. We're 3 months into her rehab and from all we read it takes at least 6 months and maybe more. So, please be careful on his level of activity until you really have a definitive answer.
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Finn's vet did the drawer test and found nothing. The specialist implied that an x-ray could still confirm a ligament injury which is why I questioned it as I had heard that this would not show up in an x-ray. She also said they would check his knees which would require an x-ray. Surely they know what they are doing but I can't help but question it. Her advice was to let him do normal activites and see if the limp comes back. If so, he should come in for x-rays and if it is an injury and not his hips, our having waiting a couple weeks to observe him shouldn't worsen the injury. I hope this is true. I'd really just like to know what we're dealing with. If it weren't so expensive I would have taken him to the specialist by now. I wonder if it would be ok to hav our vet do the x-rays rather than the specialist. It would be cheaper but I don't know if there is a benefit to having the specialist do it.
As for the breeder, he still has not responded to my last email so I have not had a chance to inquire about financial assistance. Not everyone is as helpful as all of you guys are unfortunately.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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I would let the specialist do the x-ray. There may be very specific positioning things they do in order to confirm or rule out specific conditions. X-rays at your regular vet may need to be duplicated at the specialist.
And if you do approach the breeder, please be sure to point out he's had back-end issues from the day you brought him home.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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OK, that makes a lot more sense. Without knowing the symptoms I can't tell for sure what could have been the issue but it starts to put the puzzle together for me with Finn.
Does Finn wear down the center two toenails in his hind feet? Do you ever hear them drag a little when he's walking? And when you put him on his back (rub his belly), does he get back up by swinging his hind end around and using that to pull the front end or does he get up by swinging the front end around and then dragging his rear up later?
I will have more weird questions after I know the answers to those two :). The swaying you're mentioning makes me want to know if it's spinal/neurological, which could explain a lot.
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He does wear down the center two the most, then the inner nail and the outer nail seems to get no wear. I do occasionally hear his nails drag, but never noticed if it's the front or back nails. I'll have to pay more attention tot he sound. I believe it is the back though.
I'm not sure how he gets up. I'll check when I go home for lunch today. I've always noticed that he makes it look much harder than needed but I'm not a dog so what do I know. It almost seems like his front and back end go different directions. I'll test that later today and let you know.
We were concerned about neurological damage before we got him as I know puppies who had certain viruses and survived can often have this. Especially with him not walking well off the bat, that was the first thing we asked the vet. He said he didn't see anything to suggest it. He felt his abdomen for enlarged organs which he said often shows up with neuro damage but felt nothing.
When we first got him he would pee so often and at odd times like while we were carrying him down the stairs or while he was sitting or lying down and this to worried us that there was neuro damage but again, the vet did not seem to be concerned. Many of our worries we had to write off as paranoia. He had a rough start and it lead to many fears. As far as the walking, his breeder said he'd seen pups before who took longer to get the hang of walking but they were all fine so he was sure that was the case with Finn.
I don't know a whole lot about spinal/neurological disorders, but it definitely makes me nervous. How is that diagnosed?
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I tested his rolling and it looks like he leads more with his upper body, or just leans his whole body over to roll onto his belly. I think the times it looks like the back end and front end are going in different directions are just when he is too excited and hurries to get up.
The nails are hard to tell if it's just the middle two that are more worn of if it's the middle two and the inner nail. The outer nail is for sure the longest but I think I asked you about this in an email before and you said that nail is the longest on all Cardis.
I don't know if any of that information was helpful or not. Maybe I just need to video tape him. :)
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I've been discussing him (no names, no pics, very general) with a few other breeders and we're all beginning to think that there may be a neurological issue, not a progressive one but something like a cerebral palsy from a very young age. I don't want to scare you, because the fact is that putting a word on it doesn't change a thing, but the swaying/legs flipping to the side, any sound of scraping nails, the fact that he can't jump even a little - that doesn't spell just hips to me; it spells spine/brain. Hip dysplasia actually makes them sway LESS because it hurts them to scissor the hips and so they hold them tensely and try to bend from the lower parts of the back legs instead (they'll hop like a bunny, for example). What I think is happening with him is that he's not sure where his rear is, or it's not obeying him very well. The signals are interrupted or scrambled. He hurts himself and ends up limping because he is more likely to twist his ankles or trip himself up, and the bad hips make it worse.
My bitch Clue has a permanently partially dislocated hip and major pelvic fractures that healed "messily," and when she's been lying down she tucks her legs and stands up so fast I can barely see it happening. There shouldn't be any lag between the body parts and the rear generally leads, at least from what I've seen.
If you had all the money in the world I'd advise you to take him to a neurologist. Not a regular vet; they're usually useless at neuro issues. But the fact is that even if you did, and you got a diagnosis, or he or she said "No, it's not neurological, it's just the hips, or just the ligaments, or just the whatever" the treatment is going to be exactly the same. Exercise, strengthening movements, encourage him to be aware of where his back end is and to move those legs as much as he can, swimming if you can manage it, good food, supplements. All the things you are already doing. The only health issue that would require additional intervention is a knee injury. If your vet is fairly sure his knees are OK, then honestly you are doing everything you could possibly be doing.
If it's what I think it may be - and I caution that I am not a vet; this just "smells" neurological to me - he's not going to get worse. It was damage from early on and with the good care you give him there's no reason he can't be very happy.
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Joanna, it's very kind of you to help Alice so much with Finnigan. I think we are all learning a lot following this thread, too.
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I appreciate your input and the fact that you've taken the time to ask around and get other's opinions as well.
I know the hips are an issue but as I said, I don't know that they are the only issue. You're right in that other than with a knee injury, there's nothing I can really do to "fix" it so no matter what we label it as, it should not make a difference (easier said than done). It's good at least to know that I was never being irrational in worrying about these issues because they are all very possible (ie hips, neuro damage).
So a normal dog normally leads with the rear when rolling themselves over? I actually wouldn't have guessed that. I keep picturing cats and how they always lead with the front.
He gets around just fine other than the fact that he can't jump and his back end does seem a little week sometimes. He does fine and is a very happy boy.
The swaying is only when he is walking slowly. If he gets to a trotting pace his movement is pretty smooth. When running, he starts to use his hind legs together with a slight hop on one side (the hop is just since he started limping) and kicks his hind legs to one side.
So neuro damage would have occurred at a very young age? Could it have been from whatever virus he may have been exposed to or could something else have caused it? Does it only effect body movement or does it have mental or other health effects? I really don't know much about it. I looked into it some when he was a few weeks old and I was very concerned about his not walking but then let it go since no one but me seemed concerned.
I'm really considering recording him so I can let you all see rather than me trying to explain it. It's hard to get it just right and not make it sound worse or better than it is.
He is clumsy and trips occasionally (front or back legs) or will turn his head while standing too close to something and hit his face. He will still dribble in the house once in a while, usually at night after having gone out maybe 2 hours before. I'll be playing with him and he'll suddenly look like he's done something wrong and run to my feet and I see that he dribbled. I don't know if any of this matters, is normal or something he'll outgrow so I thought I'd mention it all just in case. He is very smart though. Stubborn, but smart. :)
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It's normal for a young dog to occasionally forget that he's been housebroken. It's NOT normal for a dog to do it involuntarily. Again, that's something that makes me think he's not really aware of what's going on with his rear end; it's actually great that he's learned to hold it as well as he has.
Does he ever lift his leg while peeing? Or does he squat or just stand there or what? -
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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I agree with you Beth, Joanne you are giving us all some valuable information...Thanks!
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