What did Corgis look like?
So I just watched the "Purebreed Dogs Exposed" video that Sam posted awhile back and it got me to thinking: What have our wonderful little corgis looked like? I seem to remember a member here posting something about corgi's having slightly longer legs only about 50 years ago...
Did anyone have links or pictures they might want to share? That and anything that might open up discussion about what kinds of problems are being accidentally bread into the breed are also welcome - but please, this is just out of my own curiosity, I don't want to see any fights. :)
Did anyone have links or pictures they might want to share? That and anything that might open up discussion about what kinds of problems are being accidentally bread into the breed are also welcome - but please, this is just out of my own curiosity, I don't want to see any fights. :)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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If you go back 100 years, what people "had" was based as much on the dog's function as anything. The breeds were not as uniform as what we have now. There was not a large middle class. There were working people and there were rich people. The working people didn't have a dog as a luxury, they had it because they needed it do do something: chase rabbits, herd stock, kill rats. They went for a look that was functional, and when they were breeding they might be breeding to the farmer's stud up the road because he was convenient, but also because he was the best darned ratter (or herder, or pheasant dog) in the county and they wanted one too. Being a pet was secondary.
With the rise of the middle class after the industrial revolution, people started showing dogs as a hobby, and the idea of breeding specifically for a certain "look" came into play. When you look at the earlier dogs, there was more variability not because they weren't "where they wanted to be" but because what they wanted was a dog who did something, and if the dog's legs were a few inches longer or shorter it did not matter because he was judged on whether or not he did his job, and stayed healthy doing it.
The show ring has brought on the uniformity we see now because people are breeding for a certain type. Dog genetics is very malleable. When you breed for type, you will get type. From the dog's point of view, that is neither a positive nor a negative, it simply is.
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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In the case of both breeds of corgi (and, actually, a lot of breeds), that version of breed history actually isn't true. By the time there was an attempt to breed them systematically, both breeds were almost extinct because their job hadn't existed in many decades if not longer. As soon as the farming system in Wales switched away from tiny farms where cattle and sheep grazed common areas to larger farms with walls and fences, the farmers switched away from corgis to the larger herders.
The early breeders and fanciers saw that two historic breeds were virtually gone and they began to work to gather the best of the dogs they could find, and try to preserve the breed type. Many of the very early ones had both Pems and Cardigans, though (contrary to popular belief) they were rarely bred together. In the 20s there were two very distinct breeds and when the breeds were "split" in the 30s it was more of a recognition of a situation that had already existed than a new move to split them.
I know more about Cardigans than I do about Pems, but in Cardis they found a dog named Mon, who was said by the farmers to be the "last" of the pure (no other breeds had ever been introduced) Cardiganshire corgis, and bred him to a bitch who was half corgi and half brindle herder (a breed that has since completely disappeared). Their daughter would be recognizable as a Cardigan corgi in any breed ring of 2010.
The goal of the early breeders - and because breeder lifetimes in Cardigans tend to be extremely long, there's lots of first-person accounts from people still living who can attest to this - was to preserve that genuine and primitive breed, which without them would now be just as gone as the brindle herder, while improving soundness and structure (which had not been tested in a long time and therefore was not as honed by function as it would have once been).
There are some breeds of dogs that are still being used full-time for their ancient jobs. Those dogs genuinely are formed by the combination of a job and limited calories (very, very key, because things like good movement consume fewer calories than poor movement - so if you limit calories the dogs who succeed and breed are the ones with better structure). You can go into Africa and grab a Basenji who has a beautiful topline, front and rear angulation, good front assembly and shoulder, etc. (http://www.basenji.org/african/Tambura.htm). You can go into several areas of North Africa and bring back beautiful, sound Sloughis. Most breeds do not have that luxury - the early breeders were gathering the last specimens of breeds that they saw disappearing, and those were usually not anywhere close to the peak of what the breed had once been.
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Permalink Reply by Jessica on
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One more thought about changes to the breed: Does anyone have a copy of the breed standard of either corgi when they were accepted into the AKC? I kind of want to compare that to the standard as written for the 1950's and then today. If nobody does looks like I'll either be writing to the AKC or hitting up the reference section of Boston Public. :)
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Permalink Reply by Gromit, Sparkle, and Doug on
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>"Does anyone have a copy of the breed standard of either corgi when they were accepted into the AKC? "
You might find what you're after here for the Cardigans: http://www.cardicommentary.de/standards.htm
As for the difference someone mentioned between working dogs and conformation dogs, I've seen that clearly with German Shepherd Dogs. I have some small background with GSDs as working dogs and what I saw in the conformation ring was quite different from what "works" in the real world.
The story of the Corgi breeds being rescued is very much like what happened in the last decades with Flat Coated Retrievers, a breed in which I was interested before good fortune smiled upon me and I discovered Corgis.
I want to say too that I am grateful to all those breeders down through the decades who have worked tirelessly to preserve and improve the Corgi breeds. Huge amounts of time and money have been and is still being spent only out of a love of the breed. I don't know many Corgi breeders but the ones I do know were not able to retire from the amazing profits from breeding and showing Corgis. ;-)
I read all this Corgi history stuff to Gromit and when I asked him what he thought he said "Mae fy hofrenfad yn llawn llyswennod." Silly Corgi.
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Permalink Reply by Nancy Geddes on
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This has been an interesting thread. I have spent many years collecting early English corgi reference books and kennel advertisements. Looking at photographs of "foundation kennels" such as Rozavel, Stormerbanks, Wey, Lisaye, Cote de Niege you can visualize the standardization of this talented farm dog. Many devoted enthusiasts and breeders have gone before us and our English breeding heritage is truly fascinating......and our early American roots, too, are interesting!
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Permalink Reply by Lucy & Ricky (Wendy/Jack ) on
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This brings back memories. My very first Corgi came from the Stormerbank and Lees line.
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Permalink Reply by Vee Luther on
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My two are definitely pet quality Corgis but one is a longer legged guy who is really athletic. The other is from a breeder on a ranch and is the type, confirmation-wise but with really big feet! His parents are both working cattle dogs.
This thread is really fascinating and i espeically liked the picture of the young Elizabeth...is there an online source for those photos?
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Hi! If you go to ebay or amazon, start looking for a book entitled: Our Princesses and Their Dogs. It appears that the royal family did an entire photo shoot at the playhouse. Her Majesty was very young at the time. You may also enjoy Thelma Gray's (Rozavel kennels) original book entitled: The Corgi and my early English favorite is by E. Forsyth Forrest: Welsh Corgis. All of these books will contain wonderful stories and information as the founding kennels were coalescing in England. Another most excellent reference book is The Complete Pembroke Welsh Corgi by Mary Gay Sargent and Deborah Harper. All the best, Nancy
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Thank you. I'll look for the books. I have the sargent and harper book already and those pictures and the history are great. it's wondeful that someone took the time to document those early breeders and the results.
The short leg stamina question is interesting to me. Is it the short leg or the deep chest that makes a difference? Don't most corgis have a chest that deepens as they mature?
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Permalink Reply by Avyon on
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This is a very interesting topic. :) I'm happy I read correctly about corgis being a little big bigger and muscular in the past. I've been telling people that since most people who see our corgis usually go "Those arn't corgis! There supposed to be smaller and FAT" humph.
I am scared about breeding today though.. while I know people enjoy the smaller type dogs.. I don't want a small dog.. I got a corgi because it was a medium size and the descriptions I read about a working dog and everything.... I also don't like the mousy eyes that come with smaller corgis :( but these are personal feelings. Just like other breeds of dogs - someone will love them! Some great dog breeds came from people breeding away from an original line for different traits.
It's nice to have options but at the same time I'm happy to hear some people are trying to keep with the working breed line. I was so unhappy to hear Roxis breeder had to stop for a couple years since she retired her female (which I like - actually caring for the dogs) and wants to make sure her matches are correct. Since Roxi seems to be close to what original corgs would've been. Charlie not to much lol.
I do like fluffies, i do like the different sizes and shapes. Just want to get the dog I looked up and asked for when I go out to get one lol.
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Different breeders have different preferences. Jack is a big boy (he's ribby at 34 pounds) and very solid, and our girl Madison is about 28 pounds in good condition, which is top of the standard for girls. When we met with another breeder and she met our Jack and we chatted about his size, she mentioned that the sire is from overseas so we don't know a ton about him, but then added that our breeder's dogs are "big on the bottom" (meaning the female side) as well. I just think that's the look she goes for. She also places a fair number of dogs in agility homes, though she is strictly doing conformation herself, so obviously she's breeding very athletic dogs. We were thrilled with our experience with both dogs, and she does a great job.
That said, if I wanted a working farm dog, I would be looking at people breeding from true working lines.
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