Electronic training collars
I have been looking into getting an e-collar for my dog. He knows his basic commands but I want one just as a backup in case we get into a situation where he cannot see or hear me. My mother has a Dogtra for our Dane and he responds to it well, but I wanted to know if any other Corgi parents have e-collars and what brand do you use?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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If you are referring to an alert collar that has a beeper, and the dog is trained to the beeper the same way a dog is trained to a clicker, then I have no experience with those and they are mostly harmless.
For a traditional e-collar that delivers a mild shock, I want to preface by saying I am not ethically opposed to them in the right hands. I grew up with hunting dogs who are often trained with e-collars. My father used to field-trial pointers. Pointers can be very independent, and they are trialed from horse-back. They work at long distances. If you whistle the dog in and they give the ear flick and start heading into the next field, one well-timed buzz can mean the difference between a good bird dog who will give you years of service and companionship, and a worthless dog who hunts for you when she wants to and hunts for herself the rest of the time.
In the right hands AND the right circumstances, they can be a wonderful tool. If you are an experienced trainer (have competed extensively in performance events or trained working stock dogs, working hunting dogs, or working service dogs) then I say go ahead and try it if your other options (positive conditioning) are not working.
Otherwise, they should only be used by pros. A poorly timed e-collar can ruin your dog, and the fact that you say you want one for when he cannot see or hear you gives me pause. You should never, ever use any punishment OR reinforcement if you can't see or hear your dog. Here's why:
We hike with ours somewhat regularly. Sometimes they will run off after a sight (Maddie) or smell (Jack) and I lose track of them. I will call and sometimes if they are caught up in what they are doing, they don't come. I'll wait thirty seconds or so and call again. By the time they come into my line of sight, both of them are always, and I mean always, coming to me at a dead run, full speed, tongues wagging and ears flapping.
If they are running when they come into sight, that means they were already running full speed towards me before they came into my sight.
What do you think happens if you hit a dog with an e-collar (because you did not see it) when it's doing a full-speed recall from an eighth of a mile away? Do you think that dog will ever come when you call it again?
Get a whistle. Blow the whistle, give your dog a nice piece of cheese. Lather, rinse, repeat. You won't have to worry about his being out of sight or hearing then.
The only time I would consider an e-collar for non-performance dogs is when they do something, like bolt out doorways, that puts them in danger. Even then it should only be done under the close guidance of a reputable trainer.
Your Corgi is a cutie!
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Permalink Reply by Mary Adams on
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Well first of all, let my clear up my statement: I don't want to use it as a negative reinforcement. His mannerisms are very mild so I would have little use for "shocking" him in most situations. Most collars, including the Dogtra models have vibrate buttons which is what I would use for my dog in case he was out of my line of sight or earshot. I would never punish my dog for coming to me after called because you are right, he would certainly not want to ever come back to me again.
And thank you :) He's laying on my foot right now, lol.
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That makes more sense, but you still should not punish or reward when the dog is out of sight, as you are simply punishing or rewarding random behavior that you can't see, so you would have no way of knowing what you are rewarding and it may not be what you think.
If you want to train it to mean "vibrate" means "go back to your owner" then that would be easy enough to do, though I would think a whistle would have the same effect.
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While a whistle would work for simple come commands, it wouldn't deter him from running across the street for example. A properly used e-collar with a well-trained dog keeps them safe in unsafe situations. As I said before, it would not be used for punishment in any shape, way or form, but as a means to have an extended reach, so to speak.
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A lot of collars have at least 400yds of range and the more advance ones can go up to 2-3 miles, which is pretty handy in my opinion. And if the dog is wearing the collar then it only makes sense to have the controller in hand as well, or at least around your neck with a strap. And time is spent with training an e-collar because it is a must for the dog to understand what is being asked of them.
Also, I have heard that corgis are "sensitive" is that reference to physical or emotional? Because an responsible dog owner would never have the setting on high to start with.
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Emotional, or rather they are very sensitive to physical corrections or loud verbal corrections, to people arguing, to changes in their routine or environment.
They are a herder, selected for a thousand years to instantly notice anything different in their environment and respond to it.
My soft dog is actually less sensitive than my pushy dog, so stubbornness has nothing to do with it.
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I'm sorry, I guess I did not define my terms. I am referring to Positive Punishment as the term is used in operant conditioning.
Punishment is any action taken that reduces the likelihood of a behavior's occurrence, also referred to as an "aversive".
I did, in one circumstance, use a squirt gun to spray one of my Corgis in the face. That is a positive punishment. So is a loud noise, an ah-ah, a shock, throwing something in front of the dog, etc.
A negative punishment would be removing a desired object to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring. So in dog training, that would be turning away when a dog jumps, or putting away a treat when the dog fails to respond.
And I repeat that no punishment or reward should be given unless you are absolutely certain of what the dog is doing.
I agree completely a collar can be a good training tool in certain circumstances, but the sort of distance work you are talking about.... it takes a very experienced trainer to do that sort of distance training very well. My father said he's seen plenty of good pointers ruined with one ill-timed hit from an e-collar, and a pointer is a hard-headed dog compared to a Corgi. From 25 yards away it is difficult to tell what a dog is doing, and if they are starting to shift their weight in your direction to come and you choose to touch the button at that instant because you can't see them and THINK they are ignoring you, you will train exactly the opposite of what you intend to train.
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Agreed, agreed.
My goodness, I didn't man to rile up such a fuss, lol. But I do appreciate all the comments and I am not taking such a decision lightly because it is a behavior altering device and I don't want to use it in a negatively negative fashion, if that makes sense.
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If I lived on acreage, I would absolutely use one (if needed; some dogs would never need it) to train a dog to stay off a road.
I would also use one on a car-chaser, a door-bolter, or something else that put the dog at risk.
One other thing to consider is some smart dogs learn that the magic buzz only happens when the collar is on, and so those dogs learn they only have to listen when that particular collar is on! They sell dummy collars for those types of dogs.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I would never use a collar that gives a shock of any kind on a corgi. Many breeds of dogs, corgis being one, are too sensitive. Also if he can not see or hear you, I do not see how it will help him mind better. It would be better to find a trainer that uses distracting stimuli during class. We had one that taught recalls that way and it is amazing how helpful it was. She used everything from goats roaming to more advanced dogs practicing their stays and recalls in opposite directions. If you can not find a class you can practice different situations with your dog on a long line or in a fenced yard. What are you thinking that you want him to do?
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Permalink Reply by Jane on
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Personally I would never use any type of shock collars on my dogs. They are just way too sensitive and smart IMO. Heck once I accidentally kicked my pem in my sleep, and he wouldn't come to bed with me for 2 weeks after that! I guess I just don't see how a vibration or a shock is going to make him pay more attention to you. I think mine would run the other way!
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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on
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I would never use an e-collar on my dog unless he was ABSOLUTELY out of control and no other method worked. Many very well respected trainers will throw you into oncoming traffic at the thought of using an e-color. As was said a million times already in previous posts, there is no replacement for time spent training. Has your dog ever given you reason to think he needs an e-collar (ran into oncoming traffic, been hit by a car, etc)? I am proud to say that after extensive training with Franklin I would rate his recall at around 99.9%. This was achieved with positive re-inforcement alone. Lots of obedience training and treats. I go virtually everywhere with him offleash and he can be in a dead run after a squirrel/cat/dog/bird and I can call him back and he will spin right around and come back. Only occassionally do I have to use my "mean" voice to get him to come. And last of all, you say you would never use it as punishment but how will you explain to your dog the scary vibration or shock is not a punishment but only a means to get his attention?
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