Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rachael & Waffle on January 19, 2011 at 11:37am

Here is a list of raw sources I compiled for someone interested in ...

 

This is a spreadsheet I made to help balance his meals for the week.

You can change the ideal weight of your dog and the numbers will adjust accordingly.  To save to your computer, go to File>Download>Excel.  If you don't have a version of Excel that can open an .xlsx but can open .xls, I can convert it and reupload.  Keep in mind that the numbers are for an adult dog!  To adjust it for your puppy, change both the 0.02 and 0.03 multipliers in cells C5 and D5 to 0.1.  

 

I don't follow "BARF" diets-- that's the one that focuses on raw meaty bones and that Joanna Kimball of Black Sheep Cardigans feeds.  I created my spreadsheet off the "whole prey model (WPM)" diet, the one that Joanna mentions in her raw feeding article briefly.  When feeding WPM, you don't need to supplement with vegetable matter, though it wouldn't hurt.  When I switch over to feeding solely raw, I will be giving Waffle a supplement mix of Vitamin E, Vitamin C, a probiotic, and fish oil.  A little extra vitamins never hurt. 

 

Typically, you want to feed 2-3% (hence the min and max portions of my spreadsheet) of your dog's ideal body weight daily.  For puppies, you want to feed 10% of their body weight.  The general guidelines for WPM is 80-85% muscle, 5-10% organs, with half of those organs being liver.  If you're only feeding liver as the organ portion, don't feed more than 5%!  Also, don't feed cod liver oil.  The remainder of the diet is bone.  So, 10-15% bone.  That's hard to weigh, though.  Calcium/phosphorous deficiency is something to look out for when feeding WPM, so I would rather feed more bony meats.  Chicken quarters, poultry feet, wings, necks, pork/beef tails, etc are all adequate bone sources.  A recreational soft bone (one they can consume, not beef/bison femurs-- those are too hard) is a good bone supplement also.  The best indicator of whether or not you're feeding appropriate bone amounts is the stool quality of your dog.  Too much and it's chalky, too little and it's soft and dark.  Extended C/P deficiency can cause weakness and fragility in your animal, so if you notice this, just add more bone.  Hopefully this won't be a problem, though!  

 

Hearts are considered a muscle meat in WPM.  Anything that isn't attached to a bone is organ in BARF.

 

You're going to want lots of Clorox wipes, another freezer, a place to feed the raw, a [digital?] meat scale, and one or two really good knives.  It's okay for you to buy meat that is just on the verge of going bad (it's the cheapest-- the Yahoo! Rawfeeding group can give you pointers on how to be prudent when shopping) because you will end up preparing it in individual portions, most likely, and then freezing it.  The smell can get pretty bad, and you have to be vigilant about food safety.  Your dog will shed significant amounts of salmonella, so if you have small children or bad hygiene, raw may not be a good idea.

 

Anyways, this is just a basic understanding of how to feed raw.  I highly suggest going to the links I provided, and beyond, to further educate yourself before you and Gypsy set off on this adventure!

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Permalink Reply by Jane on January 19, 2011 at 8:47am

I haven't heard of that brand but this article might be helpful:
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/raw-diet/

 

I follow a bunch of cardigan blogs and most of the breeders feed raw as soon as the puppies can eat solid food, so I don't think you need to worry about her age.

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Permalink Reply by Peggy Woods on January 20, 2011 at 6:27pm

I started adding raw to my dog's diet as soon as he came home (age 10weeks). It's what all canines are born to eat.

I buy the Natural Instinct - usually the little chunks as they are easier for me than the big patties. I also make up my own mixes when I can get good organic stuff on sale (my CSA provider also provides me with livers, hearts, bones, etc!) I also get beef & bison bits from the restaurant I work in (hurray for free food!)

With chicken for people as well as our pets, the "cleaner" carcasses come from organic/free range sources. avoid Holly Farms, Tysons, etc (boo hiss)

For kibble I use Taste of the Wild. They also make a good "wet" food, as does Before Grain. 

Whatever you choose to feed your li'l guy, try to avoid grains! then your friend will have healthy coat, less chance of food allergy, obesity, diabetes, etc. The other bonus is the poo is less & easier to pick up... and change the diet gradually, of course :)

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on January 20, 2011 at 8:05pm

I am currently in a veterinary parasitology class and wish anyone and everyone feeding a raw diet would take a class like this before starting! So interesting and sooooo gross!! Just look up Echinoccocus, Taenia, Trichinella, Toxoplasma, Cryptosporidium, etc, etc, etc Not only can they infect your pet, but they can infect YOU and have NASTY NASTY consequences if they get into the wrong host (i.e. not a cow, sheep, pig, etc). There are some out there as well that will kill you if you get infected, or cause blindness, neurological disorders, etc. Also realize that when buying that high quality organic meat, that also means you are buying a meat that can not be treated with antibiotics and anthelmintics meaning they have a higher risk of transmitting parasites to you and your dog. They are only allowed to be treated with Ivermectin which is the drug in which the parasites have the highest resistence. Just some things to think about.

 

Taste of the Wild has done wonders for Frank. I recently switched him from Blue Buffalo Wilderness, we are only 2 weeks in to the new food and his poo has been cut in half! So awesome!

 

But I understand this isn't a discussion about raw vs kibble, so just try to do your homework and try to be as informed as possible before making any decisions, especially in a very young puppy with an under developed immune system.

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Permalink Reply by Priscilla, CARLY, and Frankie on January 20, 2011 at 10:11pm

i cant wait to try the taste of the wild , i have a bag of food we have to use first...why do you think it has cut the poop in half?

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on January 20, 2011 at 11:56pm

they always say premium food is supposed to cut poo down because there aren't fillers and waste in the food, but it never has worked until this food. Not sure what is so different about this than Wilderness (both are 6 star premium foods). I guess it just sits well in frankies belly and he's been doing GREAT on it. The transition was really easy too, no loose stool at all and I was able to transition in like 4 or 5 days with no problems.

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Permalink Reply by justine moeller on January 23, 2011 at 11:45am

I would hate for people to be turned off of a very healthy diet of raw feeding for being scared and not knowing all the facts.  I asked a friend (who works with a husky pack and is a behavioral consultant for animals, she also does a lot of rescue work) about some of the comments you had made in regards to the bacteria. I am a vegetarian and never deal with meat so this new adventure for us into raw food is something I want to know all the facts about, especially when dealing with raw chicken, etc.  I got a reply from her and wanted to share it with all of you. This is directly copied from her email. I had asked her about feeding raw to a puppy, bacteria and organic meat. It was VERY important my meat be free range and organic,as being a vegetarian myself I do not support the mass poroduced meat industry nor do I agree with pumping hormones into our bodies from animals.. 

 

I hope this reply will be informing for everyone, especially those thinking about switching to raw food - it does not need to be as scary as a lot of people are making it sound ----- Here is her reply! 

 

Couple of things: contrarians to raw feeding will say not to feed raw to young or old/ill dogs - because they feel that their immune systems are compromised (puppies by vaccines, old/sick dogs by illness) and this will make them more susceptible to the bacterias in raw meat. In my opinion, the average puppy is healthy and the nutritional support of feeding raw will only strengthen their systems. In an older/sick dog, additional support from supplements MAY be needed but that would be the case with any diet.

As for hysteria about bacteria and parasites in meat:
1) Dogs have far stronger digestive enzymes: they can reduce raw animal bone to powder in their stomachs.
2) Dogs have shorter digestive tracts that humans so food passes much faster and bacteria is not sitting around festering, it is passing through the system, undigested.
3) Many raw diets are fast-frozen to kill possible bacteria, parasites or viruses.
4) Bacteria is found in processed foods too.
5) Bacteria studies in dogs (processed and raw) analyzed the food and the stool - and demonstrate that the bacteria going in one end passes out the other.

As for the hysteria about human-dog (zoonotic) cross-contamination: ALL IT TAKES IS COMMON SENSE. When handling raw meat, for your dog or yourself, you wash your hands and clean your dishes and surfaces properly. When handling your dog's feces, don't put it near your mouth or eyes - and wash your hands. I can say, for one, that I am never tempted to do otherwise! lol

Now, as to what parasites are found in organic meat - I can't say for sure - but the fact that they are naturally occurring, is reassuring. The fact that the animals haven't been treated with antibiotics and hormones, is reassuring. If these meats are not killing people - they are not killing dogs, for all the digestive and anatomical reasons mentioned above.

Hysteria and fear is a comfort zone for many. Raw feeding is an old idea that predates pet food manufacturing and is huge threat to the dog food industry. Some of the biggest processed dog food manufacturers are the names found in our vets' offices and over the doors of veterinary campuses. Vets barely learn about nutrition in their studies and they do not learn about diets and feeding, they learn about selling the products that are found in their lobbies. Sad but true.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa and Franklin! on January 23, 2011 at 5:11pm

agreed vets barely learn about nutrition but they know a heck of a lot more about parasites. One major flaw in this e-mail is that he says dogs digestive enzymes kill the parasites. That is TOTALLY untrue because ALL of the parasites I listed above have a DOG as their primary host (meaning they evolved over time to invade a dogs body and use it as host). Many of these parasites use the dogs digestive enzymes to break down a shell wall and release larvae, while others have a thick mucous membrane specifically formed to repel the digestive enzymes. Also, unless you are washing your dog's feet/face/etc after feedign raw, you are at risk of being exposed to the parasites. This is also true for the bacteria.

Another thing, a dog's digestive system IS NOT made to turn raw bone into dust. Unless you are feeding a prey model diet and providing hide/hair, the dog is at risk of intestinal obstruction or puncture. A wild canids digestive system has evolved to use the hair of its prey to wrap the bone into little "packets" to allow it to pass safely through the digestive tract, even then this method isn't fool proof.

 

Humans are NOT getting these parasites and bacteria from organic meats because they ARE NOT eating raw meat. I can garauntee if they ate raw pork/cow/chicken/sheep they would be infected with many of these parasites, and with many of them since they aren't the intended host, the parasites would wreak havoc on their  nervous system, digestive system, as well as cause problems with their eyes and kidneys/liver. I'm not making this stuff up, look at any of the abovementioned diseases on the CDCs webiste and they will all say COOK MEAT THOROUGHLY, this doesnt' just apply to meat we eat.

And if you need further proof that dogs are at risk for these diseases just look up Echinococcus, which has become endemic to Southwestern Native American populations as well as the Inuits of Alaska and Canada due to the Native Americans feeding their dogs raw meat. The dogs get it, and the humans get it.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on January 23, 2011 at 6:37pm

Delta Society was so concerned that they banned raw-fed dogs from participating as therapy dogs.  Studies showed increased salmonella shed in feces AND SALIVA from raw-fed dogs.

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Permalink Reply by justine moeller on January 23, 2011 at 7:26pm

I dont doubt many of these bacterias do exist and can pose potential threat - but where in life is there not threat? You should read the studies about bacteria in processed kibble...anyone remember the recall not too long ago where pets were dying on FROM PROCESSED foods?! Technically we're all at risk living with our dogs - bacterias from kibbles are passed through to the feces too.

As for raw meat - Beef tartar? Beef Carpaccio? Lamb tartar? Lamb Carpaccio? Meat being cooked blue, rare, medium-rare and people EATING it cooked like that ALL the time?

And, yes, there is a risk of a bone puncturing an organ. Totally true - and you know what? Wild animals live with that risk every day. Nobody's freaking out after a Lion dies from a bone that their diet is dangerous and they should be eating kibble instead!

With kibble, you run a risk of bloat when the food is gulped down and expands in the stomach. That risk is far less on a raw diet, since the digestive juices start as the animals CHEW their food and nothing expands.

Truth be told, there is a risk associated with pretty much everything these days - including taking your dog to the park or vet or groomer! All we can do is our best to educate ourselves, measure the benefits and minimize the risks. At the end of the day, it is a personal choice we get to make as guardians of the animals.

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Permalink Reply by Beth on January 23, 2011 at 6:34pm

I might argue the hysteria and fear is actually over kibble.  

 

Raw food is "natural" for everything, including people.   We started cooking it for a reason.   Most wild animals are crawling with parasites, and a lot of raw meat has pathogens on it.  Dog eats meat, dog gets pathogens on face and paws and passes it through feces and saliva.  Dog then noses things around the house and Presto! pathogens are now on surfaces.  You wash your hands after handling, but unless the dog is very clever indeed, he does not wash his.

 

As far as vets, they know as much about nutrition as doctors do.  What amazes me is that people will dismiss the opinions of vets as being worthless because they have no dietary training (but do have degrees in biology), then take advice from someone online who has absolutely no qualifications except having read some stuff from someone else who also had no qualifications, and having owned a few dogs.  A vet sees more dogs in one day than most of us (even breeders) will own in a lifetime. Good vets keep up on research and go back to school and see the latest studies.  I am not sure why anyone thinks a vet, who is bright and educated and loves animals, would just take everything a food company says in a sales pitch as the gospel truth if there were no research to back it up.  People will trash a vet and then take the opinion of some strangers on a website whose qualifications and associations are not even anywhere to be found.

 

Finally, if you have a vet who gives advice on food for HEALTHY pets based on what they sell, I suggest finding a new vet.  I am very tired of the vet-trashing that goes on in feeding threads.  Vets go to school for years and don't make a heck of a lot of money.  Most of them love animals.  The prescription diets found in vets' offices can help keep special-needs pets happy and healthy for a long time.  My brother has a dog with a congenital heart problem and the very-low-sodium diet (prescription) he is on has totally reversed his symptoms.  Pet food companies spend a lot of money and a lot of research time to develop specialty foods for animals with serious health problems. They are doing a good thing. They get a lot of flack for no good reason.   Yes, wild animals eat raw food and they also live painfully short lives compared to our well-cared-for pets.  Part of that is vaccines and medical treatments, but part of that is diet.  

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by justine moeller on January 23, 2011 at 7:17pm

I agree with you Beth that there is a lot of vet trashing. Sadly, many have encountered vets not worthy of much praise. We have encountered both! Our current vet is great. He is a holistic vet who specializes in diet. We have stopped giving our dogs vaccines for the most part unless we travel to places that pose an actual risk where we should vaccinate. A few people have told us this is wrong - everyone is entitled to their own opinions but we will do what we think is right for our dog. This includes raw feeding from now on - which our vet 100% supports. We were researching it for a while and when I brought it up with him he was thrilled.

This debate is one that could go on and on and on :) oh yeah, and on! Haha! We have had good and bad experiences on kibble. Our last kibble was great and worked really well. However, I had heard wonders about raw feeding and wanted to try it. One of my reasons is because, I love to be aware of where my food and my dogs food comes from. I am a vegetarian bordering on vegan so this raw diet has been questioned by many. I would rather feed them meat from some place I know and have seen the animals then the meat they get from kibble where I am not quite sure where it is from and what exactly has been done to the animal and final product before selling. (at crazy prices I might add!) This is a personal choice.

I do not try to switch anyone to raw feeding and have nothing bad to say about kibbles, as we have fed kibble for years but are venturing now, down a new road for personal and ethical reasons. But I dont think anyone should try and deter away from raw feeding when many people feed their dogs with great success and improvement to their dogs health.

However anyone feeds their dog is ultimately up to them and I do not believe in bashing any feeding method.

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