Breeder Problems
We traveled a good distance to get our Winnie about 3 weeks ago. The breeder at the time of pick-up said the papers had arrived that day and she had not had the time to fill them out. She said she would send them out later that week. Well, she will not return our calls and no papers yet. All we know is Winnie was 9 weeks old and had 2 rounds of shots and worming. What do we do now?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Melvin Brock on
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We got our puppy, that was it. She said she would send out everything the next couple days.
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Got the papers last week, after making some more harsh calls. The daughter called back and said "mom has been sick" I will send them right out. I will not give her name, but she is from Kyles Ford, TN. I have since got to the bottom of my people who told me of her. She breeds many different animals: horses, poodles, corgis, goats ect. She also told me of the small size of Winnie's mother and dad. Winnie is over 20lbs already at 5 months and is bigger than Belle who is a small one at 22 months. Oh well it will be a while before we get anymore kids. We have 5 and that is a house full.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Glad to hear you finally got the papers! I have to admit, my breeder had everything ready when we picked the puppy up and We had just contacted her the day before. Best of luck with your puppy.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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I am sorry but I don't know why there should ever be a problem with the breeder not having the papers...you can register the pups on line and they should be there at the breeders house in 1 week! And the papers don't take that long to fill out! I did have a breeder that did not have the papers (forgot to register???) and I DID make her sign a paper stating that this dog was able to be registered and that she would be providing the papers. At least that way I had something to fall back on if I hadn't gotten them...I like this person and plan to get another dog from her next year BUT you can't be toooo careful nowdays....
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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I don't know the situation at hand or how good or bad the breeder in question is, but there are MANY reasons a breeder could be late with papers. If the bitch is co-owned, if the stud dog owner is thinking about taking a stud fee puppy, if the breeder wants to add another breeder, if she's registering all puppies individually with AKC and then transferring them to the new owners individually (as a lot of us are now), every one of those steps adds time. And you can't do things online (easily, anyway) when there are co-breeders or co-owners.
If the stud dog owner is thinking of taking a puppy, they will often sign the litter registration at 8 weeks, when they either get their money or take home a puppy.
Then the litter registration has to be signed by all owners of the bitch (which often involves packets of papers flying around the country).
THEN it goes to AKC.
Three or four weeks later AKC sends you the individual "blue slips," which have to be signed by all breeders of record, meaning more packets of papers in the mail, and then finally we can hand them to new owners.
Unless, of course, we register every puppy to ourselves, which takes another several weeks.
I've got a show puppy here who's ten weeks old, got here at 8 weeks, and I don't think I'll see her papers for another month or two. She has a bunch of co-breeders and mom was owned by two people. The only times I've ever gotten (or given) papers right at 8 weeks is when mom and dad are owned by the same person and ONLY by that person. In that case as long as you sent in the litter application (or did it online) when the puppies were just a couple weeks old, you should have the individual blue slips to give to new owners at 8 weeks.
Speaking as a breeder, though, the only thing that registration affects is whether you can show that dog or register any puppies from that dog. If you're going to spay the puppy, the registration papers are kind of meaningless; in my experience most pet people (limited registration) never register their puppies anyway, since all they'd be paying for is a slip of paper from the AKC telling them that they can't show or breed their dog.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Thank you for your insight!
I think I mentioned earlier that our papers were delayed. The stud dog was from the Netherlands, but standing here in the States, in another part of the country from where the dam was kept. Well, apparently there was some confusion over some number because of the foreign registration of the stud, and when the US breeder where the stud was standing filled out the paperwork, the wrong number went on the form. The paperwork was returned by AKC and then had to make its rounds again between the litter owner and the place where the stud was standing. It took ages.
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I don't necessarily agree that dog's registration papers are meaningless...even if people have chosen to have them fixed ...you can call it whatever you like I still want the papers...I am paying for a dog with papers and I want the papers and if I chose to register or not...that is my choice...not someone who is telling me that my dog is less worthy than a "show" dog and does not need to be registered...people love their dogs and if they want to register them so be it...
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It's absolutely fine, of course, if you want to register. I just don't want anyone thinking that a dog "with papers" is in any way more valuable than a dog without, or a breeder who gives you papers is "better" than a breeder who withholds them (as MANY do) or who (for whatever reason) doesn't register the puppy at all. What you should be paying for is generations of careful breeding and a dog who is going to look, act, train, and grow up the way he or she should. If you don't breed very, very consciously, you lose that within a generation or two. Once that happens, the dog is (more or less) a counterfeit purebred, maybe with papers but otherwise no different from any carelessly bred dog.
If you've selected a breeder carefully and ended up with a beautifully bred dog, whether or not the dog has a registration number means nothing. Similarly, when you've bought carelessly the registration number doesn't mean you got what you paid for. One of the things that show breeders fight hardest against is the notion that AKC registration means anything about the dog. It doesn't. The pedigree, the breeder, the health testing, the temperaments back five and six generations - those are what matter. The slip of paper is zip. And I'd say that about my show dogs, too. The number just gives me something to put down on a show entry, no more no less.
We rescue very heavily and have two rescues as permanent family members, who we are head over heels for, so believe me when I say that I don't think the number makes it a better dog. Quite the opposite, in fact.
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Thanks Joanna! That is good information. I don't show my dogs and know first hand that papers don't necessarily mean you will end up with a healthy well bred puppy (another story). It is hard for those of us that are just trying to get a healthy pup to understand the AKC's part in this(at least it is for me). This site has certainly helped to educate me!
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Registration means that the breeder says the dog is purebred. That's IT. AKC is just a big file cabinet. When the people using the file cabinet are honest and have high standards, then if you get official recognition of what they've been doing it's an official recognition of honesty and high standards. If the people using the file cabinet are dishonest or have low standards (or both), then what you get is worth exactly as much as their word.
The AKC trusts you, by default. Unless you are challenged and they go into investigation mode, you can say whatever you want and they'll register it. If I had a litter of big fluffy dogs, I could pick the registration numbers of two Leonbergers out of a show catalog, do some research into the owners so I knew which signatures to forge, and tell AKC that I had bred the two together and had a litter of eleven puppies. Whatever puppies I assigned those numbers to would BE Leonbergers, in the eyes of the AKC, and I could go on and breed them and their offspring would be Leonbergers as well. If nobody ever caught me and challenged it, I could in fact breed my line of big fluffy dogs for generations upon generations.
This does happen, and has happened. It's one of the reasons that different coat colors all of a sudden "show up" in breeds that had always been (for example) black and tan. But it's not all that common.
What IS very common is that a breeder will produce puppies for sale without ever opening their dogs for peer review (showing or trialing), working their dogs, making sure they have herding instinct or hunting instinct or whatever they're supposed to have, health testing, or having high standards.
People buy a Pem, or a Cardi, or a Vallhund, or whatever, because they want the characteristics that are unique to that breed. They want the temperament and the herding and the coat and the look of the breed and the longevity and the trainability and so on. If you don't select your breeder very carefully, you may be getting a dog with a piece of paper that says it's a [whatever], but you're not getting ANY assurance that the dog will have any of those characteristics.
When that happens (and, given the fact that most registered Pems in this country are not produced by what we'd consider high-quality breeders, it happens more often than it doesn't happen!) you can get your registration papers but you might as well put them on the floor for the puppy to pee on for all they actually mean.
Since breeders are working with live creatures, who don't necessarily follow the rules, good breeders can certainly produce unhealthy puppies. If you breed long enough, you're going to have an owner who gets their heart broken. The difference is that if you have a good breeder you get some kind of support through the process and, if it was their fault, you usually get a replacement puppy. And, again, that kind of support has nothing to do with whether you registered the dog or not. It all comes down to the standards of the person breeding the dogs.
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Joanna, thanks again for your info. I do agree with what you say and we had some papered dogs when I was growing up that, as you said, were nothing like breed standard.
Just to give some perspective from us novice puppy-buyers, though: we do our homework, research breeders, ask questions, maybe google the breeder we chose online to see if they are legit. But in the end, we know so little, really, that we are taking a blind leap of faith in the end, despite our homework.
So if you are sitting there two months later waiting for papers, it may all be perfectly legitimate (and in the case of the breeder we used, the delay was legitimate). But second thoughts and doubts start to creep in when the weeks tick by and no papers show up, and you start to wonder if you were scammed or didn't do your homework as well as you thought, and are wondering if you just paid a grand for a dog that is not what you thought it was.
I think for yourself, who is in the industry and probably knows the breeders you are using personally, it's no big deal. But from the point of view of someone who is not so well acquainted, it can be alarming to have no papers.
Again, what you say is all true, just giving you an idea of why it is important to those of us who have dogs with limited registrations. :-)
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