How Far is Too Far?
Oh, my crazy crazy life! I currently have 4 dogs in my house, 2 males and 2 females, one intact and one altered of each sex. So naturally, there are arguments here and there. Now, I try to let my dogs be dogs and work things out on their own. I know it's good for them to learn the rules, and especially for my 8 month old intact male, I really appreciate the older dogs correcting him. They do a much better job keeping him in line than I ever could! However, I sometimes wonder if there should be a line drawn somewhere. I have two main questions about this.
1) To what point do I let it escalate or do I just let them work it out completely on their own? I don't mind so much that it sounds nasty and scary because there has never once been blood, but I do get annoyed when it starts going on for 30+ seconds because neither dog will back down. It's just loud and distracting from whatever I'm trying to do. Lyla, the corgi, is especially a bully and has been starting to tick the other dogs off lately, which means they are fighting back, which means that the arguments are typically not stopping for several minutes and/or until I stop them.
2) Is it appropriate to stop an argument if it starts or comes too close to me or another person? I am NOT okay with them using their mouths near people, and I am not comfortable with them getting into tussles, say, on my lap (it has happened). I would really like them to learn to keep their arguments away from people.
I would love to hear from some of you that have larger "packs" at your house and deal with these kinds of issues on a regular basis. I by no means expect or even want the corrections to stop, I just want to be able to have a peaceful evening without dog teeth flying near my face, lol!
1) To what point do I let it escalate or do I just let them work it out completely on their own? I don't mind so much that it sounds nasty and scary because there has never once been blood, but I do get annoyed when it starts going on for 30+ seconds because neither dog will back down. It's just loud and distracting from whatever I'm trying to do. Lyla, the corgi, is especially a bully and has been starting to tick the other dogs off lately, which means they are fighting back, which means that the arguments are typically not stopping for several minutes and/or until I stop them.
2) Is it appropriate to stop an argument if it starts or comes too close to me or another person? I am NOT okay with them using their mouths near people, and I am not comfortable with them getting into tussles, say, on my lap (it has happened). I would really like them to learn to keep their arguments away from people.
I would love to hear from some of you that have larger "packs" at your house and deal with these kinds of issues on a regular basis. I by no means expect or even want the corrections to stop, I just want to be able to have a peaceful evening without dog teeth flying near my face, lol!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by christy fry on
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I have 3 dogs in my house and I don't allow anything...It is my house and my rules. Now with that said some members have alot of success with letting their dogs work it out on their own I beleive Cimball,Joanna posted a link to a blog on this specific issue not to long ago. My thought on that was the possibilty of esculation due to no human pack leader stepping in.
So my comfort level isn't the same as hers maybe that's what it comes down to, your comfort level with what is going on.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on
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Hello! Hope Sky is doing better! Seanna is almost back to normal..:-)
I too, don't allow any bickering. I am the alpha leader, and all skirmishes are stopped immediately. I'll let them growl at each other as a warning, and maybe a quick snap, but beyond that I stop it. I've always had more than three dogs at a time, and never had any problems with them accepting a new member--and I think it's because they know they aren't top dog. Not saying I'm perfect, but over all my dogs have all been very well behaved, with humans and other animals--so I must be doing something right!
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Well, I only have two, plus a cat who regularly initiates activities with the dogs. But I'm not a big believer in letting them work everything out on their own. I do allow all my animals to protect their own personal space; they can snark if someone crowds them. But otherwise I set the rules and I enforce the rules. Since no one is allowed to try to take someone's bone, or crowd in when I'm petting or grooming one of them, they don't have much reason to squabble. And when you throw the cat into the mix, I absolutely cannot let them sort it out on their own, or someone could get seriously hurt.
Even when they are playing with other dogs, I don't want them to handle their own fights. What if one of my 30-pound dogs has a disagreement with a 90-pound lab? If the message is not received after one or two attempts at delivering it, I step it.
It is definitely appropriate to stop an argument (or play, or anything) if it's too close to a person. They need to understand the message that no teeth are out around people, even if they are excited.
As for the rest, I too read Joanna's blog, and I gotta say that while I agreed completely with parts of it, I did not agree with other parts. It IS true that it's "normal" for older dogs to haze younger ones, BUT in a natural setting that hazing is designed to drive out breeding-age males completely. We force the artificial situation where groups of unrelated adult dogs live together and don't get to breed or have litters, so we have taken away their natural methods of coping (which is that most adults of breeding age usually leave the pack). In a house situation, they can't get more than a few dozen yards away from each other most times, so it's up to us to maintain the peace, at least that's how I see it.
Maddie is a very tactile dog and Jack isn't. Maddie crowds up and leans against everyone she likes, but it annoys the heck out of Jack so I don't let her lay on Jack. Jack is a ball-hog and thinks all the toys should be his, and if it was up to him Maddie would never get to play. His play drive is much, much stronger than hers and he will pile all his toys together and lay by them, which is not fair to her. He'll chase every ball I throw and Maddie is a soft dog who will back off when another dog wants it more, so I'll make him wait/stay and throw it for her a few times. Since Jack will chase more than one ball at a time, just having multiples is not enough. Same with squeaky toys or new bones; he wants both of them and he'll lay on one and chew the other and leave her without. Since I want my dogs to have a happy home, I step in when one's behavior annoys the other.
I can count on one hand the number of times one of mine has corrected the other. I know some day a fight could happen, but we've never had a squabble here. When the cat antagonizes the dogs, she gets alone time with her toys. When Maddie is harassing the cat, she gets called away and if she won't stop she's put in a down-stay. When Maddie is crowding Jack, I back her off, and when Jack is hoarding the toys, I make him "leave it" and let Maddie have one. My house, my rules, and if they were always squabbling I'd be a very unhappy person. I am not personally comfortable with chaos.
If you read "The Other End of the Leash," you can sort of get an idea of what the author allows and what she does not. Basically she teaches her dogs that being polite and patient brings good things, while being pushy does not. She does intervene if her dogs are rude to each other so that they learn to be polite.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I know opinions vary on this but I still think I get to decide what behavior is OK in my house. If I don't like it they have to stop. I have three dogs and two cats. One of the dogs is 75 lbs and the other two are corgis. I try not to get carried away but when I say stop they all do. If a behavior is certain to be a problem it gets stopped. The dobe likes to run around and if she does I put her outside. It is appropriate for the back yard but not my living room. You get the picture... I think you have to decide what you want and enforce it. It is really only a problem when the rules are not clear. Time outs and time sitting with mommy worked well with my kids and work fine with the animals too. Lol.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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I no longer allow any of this in my home! Other than Bella who has 2 week old pups is allowed to walk through and give her quiet gentle growl! Things got too out of control when I tried to let them work it out and escalated. I now let a warning growl maybe get by but at the sign of anymore They are told to kennel or leave the area. Since I have a rescue my Wynn and he don't always agree and there's no further arguing! I also had this where another female would get in on 2 females arguing and 1 got bit a couple times! NO MORE! Things are much calmer since I have taken control! I would not let them do this near a person either! I guess I have too many dogs to let them "work it out" and by taking the control things work out better for all of us!
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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on
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This is kind of where I am too Jane! I don't have a problem with a quick "snark" or correction, but the past month or so it is not unfrequent for it to escalate, and I am concerned about where this could end up. I spoke with the breeder of the two intact dogs (my newest male Aussie and one of her bitches spending the summer with me) and asked her what she thought since she keeps half a dozen dogs at any one time, and most are intact females, who are known for fighting! She said she doesn't allow anything past a quick, milisecond correction. Anything more than that and she gets on to them both. She did say she has had one instance where she's had to rehome a dog because the two females didn't get along, but other than that everything has been peaceful. I think I am going to start instituiting that around here too. I'm not comfortable with where the escalating could lead and it's just plain annoying to me.
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Permalink Reply by Susan Stanton on
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I am in the "I don't allow anything beyond minor growls/snaps" camp. I only have two corgis, both fixed. The older (6), Bertie, is an affable, nearly unflappable male and the younger (2), Ethel is a friendly girl who can be snarky toward other dogs. She has sometimes turned on Bertie for reasons not always clear to me. If they are chewing a bone or doing something where they obviously don't want another dog around, and Ethel gives a warning "stay back" growl/snap to Bertie (or vice versa), I ignore it, but when she turns on him (again, not touching, all noise and flash) such that Bertie yelps and looks worried, I stop it immediately. As others have said, it's kind of a "my house, my rules" thing.
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If it helps, when we first brought Maddie home, after about a week she started mounting Jack whenever he'd get excited and run and play in the house. She ignored Jack's back-off warnings and continued to pester him. Now, Jack is as close to bomb-proof with other dogs as any dog will ever get. He would give a tiny snark, or put his paw over her shoulder, but he wouldn't haul off and really correct her like he should have.
I asked here and got varying opinions on whether or not to intervene. Then I called their breeder. She's been doing this for 30 years, and at the time we got Maddie she had nine in her home, intact bitches and dogs of various ages. When I told her what was happening, she said I should step in and stop that right away. Now when we first met Maddie, she was still intact and Jack was fascinated and tried to mount HER, and the breeder said to let Maddie handle it. The difference was, after Maddie tried politely sitting down a few times to get Jack off, she gave one polite little growl and Jack instantly said "Sorry, Ma'am" and never tried to mount her again.
So letting them work it out, in my mind, is great when the pestering dog complies with the pestered dogs request the first time and leaves it alone after that. But a dog who keeps going back to annoying the other one is a different story. I have found by stepping in a few times early on, I rarely need to now and the nice part is my dogs don't get on each other's nerves.
Maddie is figuring out that Jack does not like to be crowded:
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They are so cute Beth!
That is exactly the kind of thing going on around here. Lyla is within in rights most times to correct the puppy (the 8 month old, 43 lb puppy!), but he is being a little dense and not taking the hint. I spoke at length with the breeder today about it and her suggestion was the same. If he's not backing off after the first, mild correction then step in and correct him myself. I know this will stop the escalating, and I think it will help Lyla feel more secure and less like she needs to be snarky.
Like I told Brando's breeder today, everytime I think I'm finally learning about dogs, something happens that puts me back into total cluelessness again! =)
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Yes, I was so glad I had the breeder to turn to when I was dealing with the mounting issue! I went online and found conflicting advice all over on different trainers' websites. But when I talked to her, what she said made the most sense. She also said if Maddie wouldn't let it go, to crate or pen her for awhile and take away some of her house freedoms til she learned to contain herself. We never had to go that far, but it was a great comfort to have someone with so much experience to turn to, because I felt like a total novice at that point!
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Permalink Reply by Joanna Kimball on
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Nobody is allowed to argue IN THE HOUSE. The house is a place of peace, and it has far too many trigger points (small closed-in areas and food) to allow squabbles. Nobody is allowed to argue next to a human or anywhere near a child. I do not intervene outside when it's just the dogs.
I don't have any problem with the concept of stopping arguments. What I think ends up being a major issue is HOW they are stopped. What usually happens is that the human determines "who started it" (usually incorrectly) and drags that dog away and puts it in a crate. It's a punishment of the wrong dog in a way that doesn't let the dogs involved finish their conversation. There's no resolution and grudges begin and escalate. I know far too many people who have multiple dogs of a breed that SHOULD be happy to all live together and they have elaborate schedules for who can be in what room and that so and so can't ever be with so and so and this dog has to go out first but never with that dog and so on. That's the human's fault, not the dogs'.
If you suppress arguments by standing up and saying "Quit it; that's inappropriate" and both dogs agree and settle, that's fine. It's singling out one dog or solving problems by separating them that causes huge issues down the road.
And yes, older dogs are SUPPOSED to haze younger ones. In a long-term pack situation. That's what makes polite, considerate adolescents instead of roaring monsters. When we had Dexter (Bronte's son, who lives with his father but his father doesn't really discipline him) came to stay for a month, he arrived thinking that you jump in dogs' faces and then try to mount them in the next move, and he was also VERY pushy around food. He got bitten in the face about six hundred times by my older bitches. Over and over and over again they'd smack him down; again and again and again Ginny (who is the rule-keeper here; she knows every single house rule and enforces them sternly) flew in his face and screamed at him for even LOOKING at food. It was a very noisy and annoying time, trust me. But the last week that he was here, he was polite, calm, looked AWAY from food whenever he saw it being eaten, and was deferential and gentle with the girls instead of trying to mount them every second. I didn't do a thing; they did that. His father SHOULD have done it already, but he's a passive boy who doesn't like to enforce rules.
Because we are the dog resource for the entire family and because we do rescue, our pack must expand at a moment's notice and I am often dumping extremely undersocialized and untrained dogs into the group; we have between five and fifteen dogs in our yard and never know exactly who's going to be here. I rely on my older bitches to set the rules and implement them, and the vital role they play is turning dogs who have no idea how to be dogs into polite and functional and HAPPY pack members. They do this by disciplining, often very harshly to my eyes, but they do a much, much better job than I could.
In terms of size discrepancies, I had Danes and Cardigans together. I routinely throw a 80-lb Rottweiler and a 70-lb Catahoula in the yard. Dogs do NOT know how big they are, and Clue will not hesitate to smack around the big dogs if they're being rude.
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Thank you Joanna, this is very informative. There are so many different opinions on this subject, and it's sometimes hard to reconcile them all and find the one that works best for your pack and your tolerance level. I want my dogs to correct eachother, but I don't want these massive roaring fights happening in my house. I feel much more confident now that I can accomplish what I want with the information everyone has given me!
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