Opinion on bummer vet visit
Okay, so today I took Fergie to her first vet visit. She is not due for another vaccination until next week, but I wanted to have at least one positive vet visit under her belt. Well - the best laid plans...... When the vet went to exam her teeth - Fergie got snippy with her. The attending vet - who is not the vet we have been using for the last 9 years, i.e. usual vet - had Fergie in a alpha dog roll/sleeper hold so fast it would raise Caesar Millans eyebrows. She looked at her wrist watch and held her there until Fergie laid down submissively, and then proceeded to tell me what a strong willed dog I had on my hands and that we were in need of immediate training.
Now - I know biting should not be tolerated. We have three young children who have been instructed to not tolerate it (which was pointless because they are drama queens and Fergie gets the point when she nips because they scream wildly and just about dial 911;)), My husband and I do the loud ouch, say no, stop play/affection and redirect with chew toy. This plan worked with our 9 year old corgi and Fergie in comparison is really quite obedient for a 10 week pup.
Am I being naive in thinking that Fergie is not the first dog to not enjoy her teeth being examined, and that this is an area as an owner I need to work with her on, but maybe not not put her on the "aggressive list" just yet.
Just wondering what others think. I would love your input.
Now - I know biting should not be tolerated. We have three young children who have been instructed to not tolerate it (which was pointless because they are drama queens and Fergie gets the point when she nips because they scream wildly and just about dial 911;)), My husband and I do the loud ouch, say no, stop play/affection and redirect with chew toy. This plan worked with our 9 year old corgi and Fergie in comparison is really quite obedient for a 10 week pup.
Am I being naive in thinking that Fergie is not the first dog to not enjoy her teeth being examined, and that this is an area as an owner I need to work with her on, but maybe not not put her on the "aggressive list" just yet.
Just wondering what others think. I would love your input.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Honestly if my vet alpha-rolled my dog without my permission, I'd be out of there and would get a new vet. A 10 week old puppy is just learning how to behave with anyone other than mom and littermates. I don't believe in alpha rolls and would be furious with a vet for doing that without my permission.
I agree with your thoughts; a ten-week-old puppy has not been handled enough to be perfect with nails, teeth, etc. Heck, I've known little kids who bit the dentist, and they didn't end up growing up to be violent offenders. :-)
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Permalink Reply by Sky and Lyla on
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Oh, that vet would not fly with me!! Honestly, I probably would have picked up my dog and walked out and never went back. To me, that is like the Pediatrician spanking my child. I once enrolled in a puppy class where I witnessed an instructor do this to a young pup (and the pup hadn't even done anything wrong, the class was just "practicing" rollovers), when the pup nipped her (because it is a very vulnerable and scary position for a dog to be in) the instructor twisted her lip until she squealed. I marched up to the instructor told her I strongly disagreed with her methods, walked out, and gave the owner an earful about her instructors. I agree that dogs need to know who is in charge and be "submissive," but I disagree with people who think the rollovers are the best way to achieve that. The studies that support those methods of dog interactions are old and have since been shown to be at least somewhat inaccurate. All of my dogs are obedient and submissive to me, will show me their tummy, and I have never once had to do a rollover on them. And if I can train my dogs like that, anyone can!!
Corgis are notorious for not enjoying being handled, so it IS something you need to work on a lot, with lots of positive reinforcement (i.e. I looked in your mouth, you get a treat; I clipped your nail, lots of cookies!). As many people will probably tell you on here, Corgis can certainly be very strong willed, but they are also very sensitive, and if treated the way your vet treated your puppy, they can easily turn into either painfully shy, timid dogs or fear aggressive dogs (that is my personal least favorite thing about the "Cesar" methods is that when done wrong, like 99% of people do them, they can make a dog so much more aggressive). My Lyla is especially sensitive, and once as a puppy when I was training her I used a very stern voice with her (not a yell, just stern) and it took her months to do a training session with me again without her just laying down and staring at me like I was about to eat her. Positive methods are key!
I recommend puppy classes for all new puppies, even if you've raised 10 puppies before. It is so good for them to be in that environment and a good instructor can help you find and fix problems you might not have even noticed. So if you are really concerned, take her to a puppy class, and keep doing what you are doing at home. The "squeal" method is one of the best things you can do to stop puppy nipping. Most pups seem to really pick up on the fact that, "hey, if I bite, no one will play with me anymore." If you have a really persistent puppy that just isn't getting the hint, you can gently and loosely hold their mouth closed until they stick their tongue out. The licking is a sign of submission and that is a lot less scary than being turned over, and you have a less chance of being bit than you do trying to do a rollover.
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Permalink Reply by Gina Mac/Fergie & Minnie on
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Thank you so much for your time and free therapy. The whole vet thing has really rattled me. We start puppy classes next Friday, and I am definitely going to make sure we only see our regular vet. Thanks again.
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You've made me feel soooo much better. What a great website/forum this is. Thank you for your advice, way more constructive then the vets - go figure.
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Permalink Reply by Roger/Laurie on
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When Chepstow was 10 weeks our then vet "grabbed" his head to look at his ears. He fought back, cried and nipped at her. She then told us he was aggressive and we had better get his behavior under control. We walked out and never went back. We knew our little boy was just reacting to her aggresive behavior.
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Permalink Reply by christy fry on
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I'm soooooo lucky my vet's wife breeds corgi's. The first time I took Jordan in my vet said "if he's not trying to bite me by the third shot I'd be disappointed" and sure enough Jordan was. Corgi's do seem more sensitive to unfamiliar touch than other breeds and a vet should understand that. Nobody has to the right to touch your animal in a way that makes you uncomfortable.
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Permalink Reply by Marion and Vern on
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What was wrong with this vet??? Alpha-roll a ten week old puppy, doesn't she know that at that age the mouth could very well be tender, hasn't she ever heard of teething. Just had to take Sami in for the runs so we had to take another vet other then ours, she was in surgery all day. Hate to admit this because she is a good vet but we may switch to the newer vet, he just has a better bed side manner. Made me feel like he had all the time in the world no rush. He was so gentle, warm and slow with Sami that I just can not say enough. I would be sure never to get this vet again if I were you. You are not over reacting or anything. Lucky Fergie to have such a great "Momma" to be looking out for her. A little slow careful work goes a long way to help them become used to being messed with on their mouths, feet etc. and of course treats are a great pay day for being good. Good luck with everything.
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Permalink Reply by Michelle on
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Our "regular" vet whom we use regularly is great with our two. He was also the vet to our Aussie, that loved to bite at people, and a large brindle chow/bulldog mix that looked so mean he could make grown men pee their pants. Dr. Jerry never had a problem with them.
I just think that alot of times the Vets like to exercise THEIR dominance by being overly agressive. We had an emergency situation with our male corgi limping, actually sitting and holding his paw up in the air and visably in pain. We had no choice but to go to Bainfield on a Saturday night. That blinking nut examained JR's paw and "I just don't see anything"was the best that she could come up with, at which point I stated to her that he was clearly in pain. She looked at me and boldly proclaimed that "prehaps he is acting out to get attention from you". I was hot. My husband proptly picked up the boy and made for the exit, I think he was afraid that I was going to show out. I was so ill he got the pleasure of paying for that little fiasco.
When we got home we had to practically wrestle JR to the ground and get a good look at his foot-----The pad of his paw was cut aprox 1/2 " of an inch at the "hairline" along the top of his paw. I don't have to tell you that we have NEVER been back to Bainfields and I sincerly hope we do not have to ever go back!!!
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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My vet is so calm and patient, I always ask for him. He is the owner and there are other nice vets there but he is just special. Sparty is scared to death at the vet and quite a stinker (think muzzle for sure) and the owner can examine him without muzzling him just because he is so calming in his approach. I don't like the alpha roll anyway and I would have a fit if someone did that to one of my dogs! People that watch Cesar Milan know that he does not use it except in very extreme cases and not with a puppy.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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How unprofessional and then to tell you that you need immediate training. Has this "so called vet" ever heard of positive training and looked at puppies 10 weeks of age...I can't even believe she would suggest this! If it were me I would call and discuss this with someone and ask them if this is what their office considers appropriate procedure for how to treat a 10 week old pup! If you can find a new vet I would consider this or else make sure you get your usual vet. My Wynn carries on like his teeth are being yanked out(verbally not biting)...but the only comment my vet as we were walking out of the exam room was "I think he might be a little spoiled" Wynn loves the vet office just not being the one in the exam room.
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and great therapy! It helps knowing I'm not the crazy one. I spoke with a neighbor friend last night who gave me the name of her great new vet that she loves. Looks like its time for me to jump ship and just go to a new facility all together. Fergie starts her first puppy class next Friday - I'll let you all know if they make her wear a muzzle :).
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Thanks so much for your advice. You are so right regarding my silence in the situation. My mind set in the seconds before the "shakedown" happened, was - "Yes Dr., meet my new cute puppy, these are my questions for you as a trusted professional....oh my God why are you putting her in a sleeper hold..." It completely took me off guard, and I second guessed myself, thinking maybe I was not seeing something in Fergie I should have been. The comparison of a doctor spanking a child is a perfect one. I do not spank my children, nor do I judge those who do, but it's just not my style. So I need to feel that same confidence in my decisions on how to discipline my dogs. In fact, when Minnie was going through her puppy classes, they also recommended the alpha roll. I swear she could tell my heart wasn't into it, and she treated it like a game - I think it actually encouraged more biting. Maybe my loud ouch/stop play and or affection/redirect with chew toy takes longer, I don't know - but it worked, because I was 100 percent in it. Minnie has never bitten anyone, and lets the vet and groomer do what they need to do. Thank you and thanks everyone for there guidance in this situation.
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