Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kim & Stumpy N on July 12, 2013 at 12:09am

Hey Nina! Sounds like Nellie is still quite the handful - I've never done "an alpha roll" but we always held Stumpy like a baby so she was on her back in our arms while doing handling exercises when she was a wee pup. This was recommended to us by our trainer to exert dominance and establish a master/pup type of relationship - Stumpy did struggle a little at first but would calm down and eventually got used to being held in that fashion. To this day we still cradle her in our arms to get her to settle down if she's too riled up by something, except now we call it "sit like a human" :) Not sure if that helps any but I am more of a positive reinforcement type of mom!

Permalink Reply by Linda on July 12, 2013 at 7:10am

I have never had to train a corgi from puppyhood but I have trained plenty of puppies over the years.  Truly it can be extremely difficult with some but I have never used a heavy hand, I find that positive works so much better and it has always given me a dog that wants to do what I am asking of it. 

My dogs are crate trained but I have never used the crate as a punishment for something they did that was bad.  I want them to know their crates are a safe place for them...their cave.  Some place they can go to nap or just be if there if something is upsetting to them.  Putting a puppy in "isolation" is like putting a toddler in a closet for spilling their juice.  It's abuse in my book whether it's a human baby or a canine baby.  The only times I had to put one of my corgis in the crate was if I had a small child visiting.  Arnie did not tolerate small children because of previous issues in his former home.  It was for the child's protection and his.  He was not being bad, he was reacting to what he had already learned as a bad situation but he was put in the crate with lots of praise and a treat so he knew he was not being punished, in fact I truly believed it made him feel safe.

Permalink Reply by Jane on July 12, 2013 at 9:12am

Invest the money in a positive-based trainer, it will be worth every penny. Unless your breeder has actually seen how the two of you interact in person, I would not take their advice with the alpha roll. It does more harm than good in most cases, and usually isn't even necessary in the first place.

I'm not going to say harsh physical punishment doesn't work - of course it might. But you should view your dog as part of the family, not some possession that should jump at your every command. Saying "well my dog is more well behaved than others" is ridiculous IMO...heck my uncle's dog is an absolute angel - yeah, because he beat the crap out of her every time she did anything remotely wrong.

Momo's owner - a dog that rolls on it's back on command is not being submissive IMO - he's just following a learned command. You could probably just as easily have taught him to lay down on a mat, instead of insisting on being the big tough alpha. It's a sad day when a dog fears its owner's touch.

Permalink Reply by sarah & tapiola on July 12, 2013 at 10:03am

People need to be aware that the "alpha" theory of how social hierarchies are established within wolf packs (which dates to the 1940's) has absolutely been refuted by modern research...

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html

Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on July 12, 2013 at 11:44am

@ SARAH, Thanks for posting this excellent article.  David Meech is someone I know personally and he is a true authority in wolf behavior in the wild.  The origin of the Alpha roll technique in dog training, however, does not originate with Cesar Millan, but with the book "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend", written by the Monks of New Skeet in 1978

This original edition ( now completely revised, so I don't know what changes may have been made in it ) quickly became a classic among dog owners and trainers, who totally misused the concept, so it ended up doing a lot of damage, as I wrote in my first reply to Nina's question.  The methods in this book were geared to a large group of German Shepherds that lived with the Monks, who had decided to breed dogs.  The book made many good points, but there have been great strides in the understanding of dog behavior since 1978 when Science still held that animals did not possess intelligence, only instincts.  The Monks, being Roman Catholics, also believed only humans have souls and animals were just part of a a world put here for the benefit and use of mankind. Nature was to be ruled, rather than something we were an integral part of.  I was raised Roman Catholic and I remember having many arguments with the good Nuns as a child and growing up....

Permalink Reply by Beth on July 12, 2013 at 10:21am

Wolf packs are mostly family units. The "alphas" are the parents and the "subordinates" are juveniles and young adults, who will one day soon leave to form their own pack where THEY are the "alphas."

Permalink Reply by Beth on July 12, 2013 at 12:08pm

I wanted to make a point about training a dog who does not like being handled:

If you went to the dentist and squirmed, and the dentist responded by holding you down in the chair until you "submitted", how would you feel about that dentist?

The idea that you should forcibly hold a scared or frustrated dog til he submits is so widespread, and I don't know where it started. Believing the hype, I tried this with Jack when he was a puppy who did not like being handled, and it absolutely backfired.

You get the dog used to it by associating it with things it likes. So for a dog who likes cuddles, handling paws while you cuddle it makes sense.

But for a dog who hates being on your lap, you are then associating one thing it hates (being on the lap) with another it equally hates (having its paws touched). The result? It hates both even more, and if you persist it comes to see you as the thing that causes what the dog hates, and so the dog avoids you all together.

The better approach is to associate something the dog doesn't like (being touched) with something it likes (eating peanut butter, or playing tug). And you start with the minimal amount of touch he'll tolerate, and work up from there. And you always mix short, tolerable touch sessions in with the longer training ones.

So it might look like this: present spoon with peanut butter, let dog lick, briefly touch a paw while he continues to lick and not try again for 3 days.

Play tug, pick up a paw and put it down, continue tug, pick up a paw again and continue tug, and end it/

Bring out the pb, don't touch the paws and let the dog lick, and be done.

Bring out the pb two days later, pick up paws twice, let the dog go.

Three days later, go back to picking up the paw just once.

And so on.

Forcing your dog to do something he hates til he submits to it helps neither the dog nor your relationship, and should only be done in emergencies.

Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on July 12, 2013 at 12:48pm

Beth, I had the dentist experience and it took 30 yrs and many dentists to get over it.   It was not until I found someone who understood how to deal with that  fear that I began the slow road of releasing it.  Good analogy.

Permalink Reply by Lois B. Allen on July 12, 2013 at 4:44pm

ONE SIZE DOESN'T FIT ALL.  My boy Randy and I have struggled considerably but he is 2 years and 8 months and things are continually improving. Randy was not only cute but is an alpha male but apparently has a hyper activity disorder.  He is also adorable but is the most determined dog that I have ever owned.  He used to bite me when there were issues over who was in charge and has been jealous over my talking on the phone and would attack my feet and bite my ankles when I was talking on the phone.  

He seems to have exhibited behaviors that I have heard from people with hyper active children.  If you tried to stop him, he would continue what he was doing 3 - 5 more times before he could stop.  He demonstrated his intelligence by becoming house trained within a month and developing really interesting ways and things to play with.  I did hold him on his back between my legs when I was sitting in my chair as that was supposed to be a submissive position. A few times, I also held him on his back on the floor when he had trouble stopping something. I also had to stare him down if we were having a confrontation.  During his early months, I was online reading everything I could find to help me understand but I did hold him and pet and love him when he would hold still.  

I eventually learned that he did not respond to verbal directions such as sit, down and the usual.  I had to wait until he 15 months or so to go to Pet Smart for puppy training.  He did respond to clicker and treat training and seemed to respond to hand signals better than word commands.  He was a terrible tugger and we tried Halti head collars and the Gentle Leader but then I have been dealing with foot and back problems and haven't been unable to continue that type of training.  As a part of his not understanding verbal or word commands NO, STOP or COMB, I had to develop what I thought might be an animal type sound that indicated NO.  That seemed to get his attention and he would taper down and stop what he was doing.  If he got aggressive and started biting, I would hold him still, look him in the eye and growl my most vicious growl.  For a separate reason (& for health), I started giving the dogs fish oil and found that with it and age (maturity) he started settling down and he continues to improve.  After he learned sit, down and stay (to some extent) using hand signals, he has learned the words that go with the commands and actually stops and listens to me at least part of the time now.  We have had a wild time at times but do have a loving relationship.

With most dogs, it may be possible to follow certain general training guidelines but sometimes, you may have to fly by the seat of your pants and do the best you can.

Permalink Reply by Anna Morelli on July 12, 2013 at 7:32pm

Lois, I read your detailed post with much interest and agree with your statement that one size does not fit all.  What you described is a seriously hyperactive dog.  You see this in children and, interestingly Fish Oil is beneficial to hyperactive children as well.  Your story comes across as nothing but caring and I understand how a hyperactive dog or child can be a challenge and truly test your patience.  Structure, patience and love are the way through.  Food allergies can be involved as well. I wonder if you have looked into that.   If you do it right, meaning you don't add to the problem by using detrimental methods, maturing also helps. These dogs over react to stimuli and distractions, so you were wise to wait  until 15 months  for the PetsMart  class. You also describe his hyper focus.  I think you assessed the dog correctly and worked with him as best you could, by trial and error, with the intent of helping him succeed, not dominate him!  I am glad you did not just see him as "bad" and that you continue to see improvement.

Permalink Reply by Lois B. Allen on July 12, 2013 at 7:51pm

Thanks Anna,  He was desperately lonely and I tried to wait for a corgi rescue or such but was unsuccessful so I adopted Reese who might be a corgi mix from what turned out to be a less desirable rescue facility.  I ended up spending time and money on getting her healthy as she had multiple infectious disease problems.  But there have been conflict between the dogs as both want to be alpha and Reese apparently caused some problems with Randy.  I have tried to provide what I might call sound food but have not explored food allergies and may read more.  I have not seen skin problems, itching, watery eyes or obvious signs but I do understand that low level toxic reactions and sensitivity problems are important in children I just don't know much.  I will try to look into sensitivities in dogs as it might involve the brain and behavior.  If you know of a particular reference, I would love to study the info.  Thanks for your comments.

Permalink Reply by Jenna, Seth & Reginald the Corgi on July 12, 2013 at 8:57pm

Were you on the NorCal FB group too?? If so, sorry- what I'm saying is repetitive!!

We are currently doing the alpha roll to manage our puppy, who can be very headstrong. It works and you have to be consistent. I feel that Reginald has greater trust in us as his alphas because he knows that we're serious. We don't hurt him at all - we're very calm about it and sometimes he may yelp to challenge us but we keep him down and he learns. As soon as he's calm, we let him back up and he's a happy pup all over again except this time, he knows that there are boundaries. And trust me, they know how you're feeling. I'm still having a hard time meaning what I say but when I make that conscious energy shift, Reginald knows and he listens.

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