Back to the Breeder with Ruby?
Enough is just about enough. I'm about to give up on this poor little puppy.
But honestly. I've had a lot of puppies in my years between age 22 and age 69, and I've NEVER had one that I couldn't house-train within a couple of weeks. Ruby seems to be stone resistant.
I know she can last for six or seven hours, because she sleeps through the night in her crate without problems.
She also has a nice X-pen (two of them, really) and she can manage three or four hours during the day in that, while I'm out running around.
She seems to know she's supposed to go outside. As soon as she's taken outdoors, she does her thing and is enthusiastically congratulated. She never poops in the house, but she pees constantly. When she pees in the house -- which can be up to half a dozen times a day -- she does it by stealth. It's VERY rare for me to catch her in the act. But trust me: many acts take place.
I doubt if she has a UTI: her urine is clear and odorless, she has no fever, she has a good appetite, and she's lively and alert and seems to feel just fine.
I am very, very tired of cleaning up puddles.
But more serious is the issue of keeping her out of places where she's either going to get hurt (i.e., drown) or to do serious damage I can't afford.
As you may recall, after she fell in the pool, I barricaded the pool with these wooden garden fence strips that I bound together with zip ties and roped to the patio uprights. This works to keep her out of the pool, but it means I have to climb over the thing every time I walk around the backyard.
Ditto the bedroom closet.
I keep my shoes on shelves, a habit developed years ago when I learned that shelving the shoes discouraged the German shepherd puppy from eating them. I have foot issues that obviate purchasing cheap shoes; thus my shoes represent a considerable investment and are not things I can casually toss in the trash. This dog will climb up the shelves to get at the shoes.
So I put a piece of this wooden garden fence stuff across the closet doorway, taped in place with blue masking tape. The problem with keeping the door shut is that the laundry basket resides in there and there's no ventilation in the closet, so if the closet door is shut, forthwith in 100-degree heat (which we happen to be enjoying today) all the clean clothing in the closet starts to stink like week-old laundry. I need to keep the door open to ventilate the closet.
A week or two ago I tripped and fell over the pool barricade. Cut my leg but otherwise was OK.
Today after putting pup in her crate and getting ready to climb into bed for a short siesta to make up for yet another three-hour night, I went into the closet to hang up some clothes and tripped coming out.
Thought I'd fractured an ankle. Dragged myself over to the nightstand to pull down the walk-around phone and call 911, but lo! the phone was gone.
Dragged myself into the hall to scoot into the living room in search of another phone I might be able to reach without standing up and...oh yes! Dragged myself RIGHT INTO YET ANOTHER PUDDLE OF PEE!!!!!
I swear, this dog has not been out of sight long enough to pee! I'll be darned if I can figure out how on earth she pulls off these stealth pee attacks. She's over 3 months old now, and she should be old enough to get the message. I think. I mean come ON. I've had nine-week-old pups learn house-training. The most difficulty I've had before was with the last German shepherd, and I'm quite sure she was trained by 12 or 14 weeks.
One person on this board has reported that it took six months to house-train her corgi. In the patience department, I'm not sure I'm up for cleaning up a half-dozen puddles of pee every day for the next three or four months. But more to the point, I do have osteoporosis, and if I keep falling over contraptions set up to keep her out of places where she could get hurt or do unaffordable damage, sooner or later I'm going to break a hip. Really, that is not a very appealing prospect.
Pretty soon it will be warm enough to get her into the pool and (I hope) train her to swim to the steps and get out. (This is dubious: Cassie panics so violently in the pool that she cannot be trained to find her way out; after the pup nearly drowned, I'll be pretty surprised if she'll be any less terrified by the water than Cassie is.) And I suppose the bedroom door could be kept shut, instead of trying to barricade the closet -- a nuisance, yes; but not a suicidal nuisance.
The vet, when called, suggested a trainer. I've called this person and left word on her machine. But I feel like an idiot, calling a trainer to do a job I've done many times before myself, with no problem. And I feel mighty dubious about sinking more money into this puppy. I've already spent myself stupid, and now I have to spend god only knows how many hundreds of dollars to house-train her????? This makes sense...how?
Is there some special secret to house-training a corgi that doesn't apply to other breeds? If there is, would someone please share it? If she can't be trained within the next three weeks or so, she's going to have to go back to the breeder.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Vicky Hay on
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Ah! That sounds a lot more reassuring. I really don't want to subject this little dog to an invasive procedure (jabbing her bladder with a needle???!!), because honestly I don't believe she's sick. She seems healthy and happy -- right now and Cassie are busy chasing each other around. If the story is that she just isn't mature enough, then that's a relief.
The most amazing house-training story was a golden retriever that we got at 9 weeks. He was house-trained within two days. Even I thought that was completely off the proverbial wall!
The most recent adventure was with the German shepherd, and she was about three or four months old before she started to go outside reliably. However, she was getting inconsistent signals from me and the live-in boyfriend, who really didn't understand that you have to watch the dog, let her out frequently and then on top of that let her out whenever she shows any sign of antsiness.
It may be that she's just too little to manage, and I'm expecting too much of her too soon.
Most of the puddles are deposited in the room where I'm sitting -- she does not, interestingly, have free run of the house. She's either following me and Cassie around as we move from one part of the house to the other or she's in the office with me, with the door closed, or she's in an X-pen or crate, or she's puttering around the backyard with Cassie while I work on the back porch. She does have an X-pen whose size I can adjust to supplement her crate, and whenever I leave the house she goes into one of these.
Sometimes she manages to pee so fast it appears she does it by mental telepathy! :-D
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Thank you!
The truth is, Ruby the Corgi Puppy seems to have personality characteristics in common with Cassie the Corgi, Queen of the Universe and Empress of All Time, Space, and Eternity. Amazing, what's in the genes, eh? But queens/empresses have many ingratiating charms, which probably is how they get to rule the universe. It's beginning to look like Ruby may be the next in line for the succession to the Throne.
Haven't had a chance to post about the latest antics, which have been hilarious and eyeball-spinning. If I can ever climb out from beneath the mountain of work, will report. :-D
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Here is a good article on housebreaking.
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/...
Some key points:
"Some puppies learn where and where not to eliminate at a very young age, while others take longer to understand. Most puppies can be reasonably housetrained by four to six months of age. However, some puppies are not 100% reliable until they are eight to twelve months of age."
Again, being house trained at 3 months of age would be very unusual.
"If you can’t watch your puppy, he must be confined to a crate or a small room with the door closed or blocked with a baby gate. Alternatively, you can tether him to you by a leash that does not give him much leeway around you (about a six-foot leash)."
I think here is where you are having issues.
"If he eliminates outside, give him some free time in the house (about 15 to 20 minutes to start), and then put him back in his crate or small room. If all goes well, gradually increase the amount of time he can spend out of confinement."
You are correct that Jack was about 7 months old before he was 100% reliable. Before that, he would normally hold it but had a weird quirk with feeling carpet underfoot; I think he confused it with grass. Since then, the only time he's ever gone in the house was once or twice when he was ill and we were not home. I will always remember his last accident because he lifted his leg and peed on the Christmas tree we had just set up. He was born 04/30/07, so that would have made him about 7.5 months old.
But I have never even met someone who had a three month old puppy that was fully housebroken. Again, if you had this in the past you were exceptionally lucky. Count your blessings for the past, tighten up your ship for the present, and set reasonable limits for your adorable puppy. :-)
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Well, she certainly has got the message about #2. She hardly ever has a poopy accident in the house -- once in a very rare while if I haven't let her sniff around outside long enough. It may be that the urinary system takes longer to develop control over, or simply that a puppy doesn't make the connection between watery stuff and outside quite as soon. Her urine is almost odorless to the human schnozz, so even to a dog it may seem like something that doesn't absolutely positively HAVE to be deposited outside the den.
And in this light, it does look like I am giving her too much free time inside after she's done her thing outside. I do let her trot around in the house longer than 20 minutes after a trip outside. Mostly I've been using the X-pen for when I can't watch her closely (because I have to focus on work, for example) or for when I have to go out of the house. I'll try being more careful about putting her back in her X-pen shortly after her potty trips!!
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Permalink Reply by Linda on
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I agree that she does need to be tested for a UTI. I'm rapidly approaching 64 and I don't have the patience I once did...maybe that is part of it?
Natalie...have you ever tried to get a sample from a corgi? There ain't no room to get cup under them. I had to take my first corgi in to have a sample taken...no way could I get one. And I've done it before but then it's easy with an Irish wolfhound.
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The fact that she can hold it while confined makes a UTI less likely, though not impossible.
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Permalink Reply by Natalie, Lance &Tucker on
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Linda, I have gotten urine samples from Lance, but it does require two people, one to hold the leash and the other to catch the pee. :) Now, I have never tried to get a urine sample from Tucker and not sure he would cooperate as good as Lance..lets hope I never need to get one from him, lol
I read on here that someone suggested using a ladle to collect the urine and then put it in a container, I haven't tried that yet, but sounds clever.
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Hang in there. Puppies are exhausting and I think all of us have dreamed of shipping them back where they came from at least once. Jack was like a shark with his teeth and ate part of my window frame when I left him alone for all of 150 seconds... And then one day it all clicks and you can't remember what all the worry was about.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Payerl on
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Others have said this, but the thought of your puppy being returned to the breeder for something that may be easily treated just bothers me, so here's my two cents.
Ruby is still a baby and may need more time to develop bladder control, but definitely have a vet check for infection. Our first corgi would get UTIs every now and then and never showed any signs other than piddling in the house, either puddles in a spot or dribbles as she walked. The trauma of the needle to retrieve the sterile urine sample vs. being removed from the home she has known all her life --- Hmmm. If the idea of the needle bothers you that much, ask the vet to test a regular collected urine sample first to see if he/she can determine what, if anything, is wrong with that.
Re: AC... keep the bedroom door closed throughout the day and then open it about an hour or so before going to bed, keeping Ruby with you on leash or in the x-pen while the room cools down. Unless your house is huge, an hour or two ought to be enough time to cool the room down at night when temps are already cooler than in the afternoon.
What are you cleaning the accidents with? Be sure it's an enzymatic cleaner. Regular soap and water or the old vinegar trick won't work. Since she has made so many spots in the house, it will take time and effort to treat them and clean them all up. Since you have never had to deal with puppy puddles before, you might not have known this. It's not fair to Ruby to expect her not to go in the house if she can still smell pee in the house, which will trigger more accidents.
There are baby gates with "doors" that open and all you have to step over is a small stabilizing bar at the bottom about an inch or two high. We use one to keep Sophie in the kitchen to keep her safe when we are gone so she can't get into a dangerous spot and then have a seizure and hurt herself. You can find them at most pet supply places, at stores that sell baby stuff (even places like Target), and online.
I used to clip a long (8 ft?) leash to a belt and have Asta follow me around the house when I had to be doing something and couldn't keep my eyes on her but didn't want to put her in her crate. This also helped to teach her to stay close to me and later she was a great leash walker and never pulled.
No more than 30 minutes during waking hours for a puppy that young to have to hold it before a trip outside. She may need to go several time while out there. Think of how older dogs like to leave messages in a few spots whe on a walk or roaming the yard. And yes, pups (and most human tots) learn bowel control before bladder control. Two different processes. And many human tots can sleep through the night dry but still have daytime accidents and I suspect many pups do too. Asta did. Sophie was already 1 1/2 when we got her and she still had a couple of accidents (our fault for not watching her closely enough) until she learned the routine at our house.
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The power bills would be astronomical if I left the bedroom door closed all day in 110-degree-plus heat. Alas, I'm not made of money. It would make sense to try to find a "door-style" baby gate, though. I actually did look the last time I was at Target but didn't see one there. I used to have one...as I recall, it was expensive and not very easy to find.
Believe me, I've had many puppies before and dealt with many, many puppy puddles before. All of the house's flooring is ceramic tile, and so it's easy to clean them up. She rarely goes back to the same spot. It's more like, as you and others here observe, she just doesn't have control and so widdles wherever she happens to be standing when the spirit moves.
In the past, I did the keep-the-leash-on routine with a German shepherd puppy. This was not so much for house-training purposes (she had no problem with that) but because she was an amazingly destructive little gal: ate the arm off a leather chair, consumed the wooden leg of another piece of furniture, and made a hobby of ripping up shoes and purses. :-D This pup is not destructive, nor does she incline to wander off. She actually seems to want to stay within the eyesight of the human, at least for the time being.
She's pretty good at signalling that she needs to go out by squirreling around, squeaking, and going to the door. It's just that she doesn't do so consistently. Yet.
I'll try to get a urine sample without schlepping her to the vet for an invasive jab. I'd be surprised if she'll let me do it, but nothing ventured...
She doesn't "leak" in the crate or when she's inside an X-pen, which I think is a positive sign. Some nights she actually sleeps all the way through from 10:30 or 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. without squeaking to go out.
The issue about whether I can keep this puppy has less to do with her peeing on the floor (although that surely is becoming a frustration) and more to do with whether I'm going to keep falling over the contraptions I've built to keep her safe from the pool and away from possessions I can't afford to have chewed up. To fall on your face at 40 or even at 50 is a whole different matter from falling on your face at nearly 70. When Cassie tripped me by charging between my legs at a dog that threatened us, it took a full year to recover from the dislocated shoulder. If I broke a hip, I might never recover...
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Permalink Reply by susan on
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I know you don't think she has a UTI, and maybe she doesn't, but it really is worth testing. I can't stress that enough. I went through very similar house training issues with Jeli. Until the UTI gets bad enough you can't tell they have it. But Jeli had recurring UTIs when she was a pup. Corgi girls are so low to the ground that they easily pick up dirt and it finds its way into thier system. Its pretty much impossible to have successful house training if she has a UTI. Plus, it makes her have to pee more often and it hurts her. If you are finding really small puddles and If you are finding the puddles in weird places it may be because she has a UTI, can't empty her bladder, knows she should go outside but she can't make it there. Do you have a way for her to tell you she needs to go out? Does she ring bells or bark at the door? She needs a way to communicate "I gotta go outside!" to you. AND you have to respond to that request quickly - every time she asks.
Its not hard to get a urine sample. Its best to do it first thing in the morning. Get a small, square plastic container, with low sides. Take her out on leash and walk closely behind her. When she squats, shove the corner of the square container under her. Viola - you have a pee sample. Put the lid on it and stick it in the fridge until you can take it to the vet. Trust me, I had to do this many times. The vet will only suggest the invasive needle proceedure if the UTI doesn't respond to antibiotics. Its so they can get an uncontaminated specimen and test it against which medicine would work the best. You should not have to do that right off the bat.
I also agree with what others have said, she should be more confined at this age. Do you have a room you can gate off with a baby gate? Confine her to one or two rooms for a few more months. I invested in a walk thru gate for my kitchen. It is well worth it so you don't have to climb over them everytime. Jeli only had access to two rooms until she was about 6 months old, unless completely supervised outside of those two rooms.
Also, I would put her in her crate more. That helps her learn self control. She won't want to pee in her crate (assuming its small enough). Put her in there for an hour, take her out and immediately outside. When she pees, she gets a bit of freedom. Then back in the crate. If she is having accidents in the crate it could be another sign of a UTI. The XPen is great, but maybe use it less and the crate more, untill she get a little older and has more control.
Good luck to you and Ruby. Its a bit of work, but you'll get there!
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Permalink Reply by Jane on
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I agree with Beth that you are expecting WAY too much out of a 13 week old puppy. Maybe you have had exceptions to the rule in the past, but this is purely a training issue IMO. She has been given too much freedom much too soon.
How long a puppy can hold it through the night is not an indicator of how long they can hold it while awake. She should be going out every hour or so, and after eating or a hard play session. Since she seems to be able to sneak off without you noticing, I would simply leash her to your belt. There is no excuse not to be watching her then, and you can correct her immediately if she starts to squat. Shorter wooden baby gates are $10 at walmart and should be plenty sufficient to keep a puppy out of a room or closet.
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