Introducing an Adult Part 2: Now with update!
Madison has been with us three weeks now, and I am uncertain about a few things.
As I mentioned in earlier posts, she was here on a trial from the breeder where we got Jack. We've had Jack since he's a puppy and he's nearly two-and-a-half. He has always loved other dogs, there are very few he meets who don't respond with enthusiasm to his overtures, and given a choice he'd prefer dog company to human company.
Madison is going on 5. She came from a show breeder with a lot of dogs, but she was a housedog who had the run of the house all day and was also loose in the house at night.
She has fit in fine with the human part of our household, and warmed up very quickly. She loves walks and cuddles on the couch. She mind us and is easy to handle; I've brushed her and cleaned her teeth, she will wait when I put down her food bowl, she is good on the leash and in the car.
However, she seems to almost completely ignore Jack most of the time. He was like a kid at Christmas when we brought her home; the first morning when we let her out of the crate, he got this gleeful look on his face like "She's still here!!!" When I would come home from work and let her out, he'd run to see her before he'd come to see me.
She, however, has not returned the favor. She walks right past him most of the time as if he weren't there. She ignores his invitations to play, does not sniff him, will only briefly touch noses when he initiates the maneuver but then trots away. He will move to be closer to her when they are dozing and napping during the day, but she does not seem to do the same.
I thought Jack might be jealous of us giving attention to another dog, but the opposite has become true: Jack will wait patiently while I brush her, pet her, or clean her teeth. The most he will do is come and lie next to me. Madison tries to nudge her way in between me and Jack if I am doing something with him and constantly needs to be told to wait her turn.
And now as I mentioned in detail in another thread, she has started mounting him whenever he tries to play. He'll back her off and she goes right back at him. If I stop her, she will stop but then starts again next time he's playing. And when he finally got tired of it and growled at her (first time I ever heard him growl at another dog) she snarled back at him.
Is this a sign of things to come, or just a transition period? I will be honest: part of the reason I wanted another dog was to be a playmate for Jack, and Maddie so far shows zero interest in playing with him. There has not been a single game of chase or wrestling since she's been here. The first couple weeks I figured she was lacking confidence, and that seemed to be the case as she would look a little unsure if he'd barrel past. I can understand that, as she's in a new environment and probably was missing the dog friends she had (several of whom were actually her siblings).
But as she has gained confidence, things seem to be heading in the wrong direction between her and Jack. I have read other posters who introduced a new dog and the two were playing within a day or two.
Is it reasonable to expect the situation would improve after they adjust to each other? Or is it (as I fear) a bad sign that she seems intent on pretending he does not exist, except to try to halt his own efforts to play?
I need to call Kandy and talk to her, but I have been ill the past two days and am not quite up to a long phone conversation today; hopefully I can talk to her tomorrow.
As I mentioned in earlier posts, she was here on a trial from the breeder where we got Jack. We've had Jack since he's a puppy and he's nearly two-and-a-half. He has always loved other dogs, there are very few he meets who don't respond with enthusiasm to his overtures, and given a choice he'd prefer dog company to human company.
Madison is going on 5. She came from a show breeder with a lot of dogs, but she was a housedog who had the run of the house all day and was also loose in the house at night.
She has fit in fine with the human part of our household, and warmed up very quickly. She loves walks and cuddles on the couch. She mind us and is easy to handle; I've brushed her and cleaned her teeth, she will wait when I put down her food bowl, she is good on the leash and in the car.
However, she seems to almost completely ignore Jack most of the time. He was like a kid at Christmas when we brought her home; the first morning when we let her out of the crate, he got this gleeful look on his face like "She's still here!!!" When I would come home from work and let her out, he'd run to see her before he'd come to see me.
She, however, has not returned the favor. She walks right past him most of the time as if he weren't there. She ignores his invitations to play, does not sniff him, will only briefly touch noses when he initiates the maneuver but then trots away. He will move to be closer to her when they are dozing and napping during the day, but she does not seem to do the same.
I thought Jack might be jealous of us giving attention to another dog, but the opposite has become true: Jack will wait patiently while I brush her, pet her, or clean her teeth. The most he will do is come and lie next to me. Madison tries to nudge her way in between me and Jack if I am doing something with him and constantly needs to be told to wait her turn.
And now as I mentioned in detail in another thread, she has started mounting him whenever he tries to play. He'll back her off and she goes right back at him. If I stop her, she will stop but then starts again next time he's playing. And when he finally got tired of it and growled at her (first time I ever heard him growl at another dog) she snarled back at him.
Is this a sign of things to come, or just a transition period? I will be honest: part of the reason I wanted another dog was to be a playmate for Jack, and Maddie so far shows zero interest in playing with him. There has not been a single game of chase or wrestling since she's been here. The first couple weeks I figured she was lacking confidence, and that seemed to be the case as she would look a little unsure if he'd barrel past. I can understand that, as she's in a new environment and probably was missing the dog friends she had (several of whom were actually her siblings).
But as she has gained confidence, things seem to be heading in the wrong direction between her and Jack. I have read other posters who introduced a new dog and the two were playing within a day or two.
Is it reasonable to expect the situation would improve after they adjust to each other? Or is it (as I fear) a bad sign that she seems intent on pretending he does not exist, except to try to halt his own efforts to play?
I need to call Kandy and talk to her, but I have been ill the past two days and am not quite up to a long phone conversation today; hopefully I can talk to her tomorrow.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Gee Beth I hope you are feeling better soon. I don't know if Madison will warm up to Jack. I know in our case Sparty was 1 & 1/2 and we brought Buffy home at 9 weeks. He loved her and played with her a lot. They did not really cuddle but they were very attached. Unfortunately Buffy died at 6. I sort of jumped the gun and brought Izzy home just a few days after Buffy died and while Sparty was nice to her it was not the same attachment. After a year he did start playing with her and now they seem very attached to each other. I believe Sparty was in mourning for Buff. On the other hand we added Misty,the dobe, in January and Sparty has never liked her, he just tolerates her. Misty and Izzy play together all the time. So I guess this doesn't really speak to your problem except to say that Sparty did eventually come to like Izzy but sometimes dogs just aren't compatible. You probably have to decide just how committed you are to Madison and how much you think your home meets her needs. How important is a playmate for Jack? Just questions but it may help you determine what your priorities are. Dogs, like people will have their favorites. Madison may really prefer to be the only dog. You are right to want to talk to your breeder. Good luck!
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Well, I sure wish I had a crystal ball! If she is just mourning the loss of her "pack" and trying to see how far she can push Jack, I can certainly cope with that for an adjustment period of even several months. She is easy to handle and because of her background has no objections to being crated, so it's easy enough to put her away for 10 minutes a few times a day to play with Jack. Other than the playing she does not bother him at all. Out on walks she is very curious to see what he's sniffing at, but that's mostly because she's nosy! LOL
I am also trying not to put human emotion onto a dog. I'd been leaving Maddie loose at night and when the playing issue started, I locked her back up fearing it might escalate into a fight. Since it only is a problem when he's playing, and he does not play at night, I doubted there would be a problem but was using an abundance of caution.
Well, last night we went to bed and I heard Jack bark a few times. Not his warning bark when someone goes by the house, but just a normal bark. I went downstairs and there he was, lying outside her pen with his nose to the gate, wondering why she was locked up. So I let her out and she just trotted right past him, leaving him looking a bit crestfallen. Like I said, I'm trying not to put human emotions onto it but he keeps making plays to be friends and she's aloof.
I suppose it's not unusual for an adult female who was kept around exclusively intact adults to be aloof to a male when she's not in season, and again if I had that crystal ball and knew she'd come around I'd be fine.
But I also don't like the thought of waking up one day two years from now and having two dogs that live in the same house but don't relate to each other. It misses out on half the fun of having more than one!
Thanks for all your input; it is very helpful. We are already very fond of Maddie but both ourselves and her original owner want a situation to be best for all involved. I said to Shawn earlier I wonder if she would prefer to be an only dog somewhere. She is very sweet and cuddly and loves attention. But again, it may just be a transition issue and she may warm to Jack once she gets used to him.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Good luck figuring this one out Beth! I do know it took one of my female rescues awhile to become playful but she was probably just a puppy producer and never really learned how to play but she did become more playful! Too bad you can't find one thing they'd like to do together. Have you tried a soft braided rope or something that they could play tug of war??? Maybe because she's always had to be very "proper" it will take awhile...Hope you're feeling better and keep us updated!
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Hmmm. I have avoided rope toys with Jack because he unbraids them and eats the string, but perhaps under supervision it might be ok. That is something to consider. She seems to like tug.
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I do think her previous socialization was in a much more controlled setting.
She has had a more active life than many show dogs probably have. It is clear that she was loose in the house most of the time and not crated, as she will go into her crate but is much more comfortable sleeping on the couch or floor. She was also very familiar with sounds like the microwave dinging or the fridge opening from the moment we brought her home. She's good with steps too.
We were told she loves the water, and when we took her to a natural pool at a nearby stream, she leaped right in and swam around like nobody's business, so clearly she's had fun outings. She's also very familiar with tennis balls.
You are probably right about her dog-to-dog interactions being a certain way, though. Dogs must be constantly swapped around based on who's in heat, who has puppies, which ones get along (with several intact females in one house, there must be some squabbling). Plus as you mention there is fear of risk of injury. Probably at the first sign of fighting or maybe very rough play, dogs are separated. And she is a bit intimidated by big dogs. Jack, on the other hand, will go right up to huge dogs. He has befriended a St Bernard, a Mastiff, and more than one Bernese Mountain Dog. He never shows fear, though if the dog is sufficiently huge he has the good sense to approach with his ears back and a submissive smile; he's not crazy!!
I have been using a combination approach of letting them sort it out sometimes, and then other times keeping her away so Jack can play in peace and burn off some energy. It has been interesting to watch the situation evolve. This morning, Jack decided to change his approach: instead of just knocking her off, he gave her the choice of playing chase or wrestling instead of what she was doing. He made invitations to both games (chase by play-bowing and barking and play-nipping at her then running off; wrestling by rearing up on hind legs with an open-mouthed toothy dog smile) when she tried to hop on his back, and while she didn't join in, he got some exercise doing full-speed laps of the house, and it definitely threw her off her intent. It seems he's trying to teach her what HE likes to do.
He has some learning too, of course. He's played with lots of dogs but never lived with one.
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And just to be fair to Madison, I wanted to add that Jack does chase balls with a mad intensity that many dogs find off-putting.
If there is one ball being thrown and two dogs, the second dog will frequently take one look at Jack's mad dash and just give up and go back to its owner, as if to say "I don't really want it as bad as he does."
It's never caused a fight, and if the other dog is also an avid ball chaser but faster Jack is perfectly ok with not getting the ball, but I do believe that if he had a more mild play style to begin with that Maddie would not have such an issue with it.
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Permalink Reply by Judi, Dawn, Soffie & Griffyn on
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hmmm.... quite a conundrum!!! First before I forget.... I don't think a tug of war game would be good because I definitely think they are still trying to sort out which will be the "alpha" and this type of play may create some aggression issues not to mention the loose string issue that I think is very dangerous! Just my opinion, but I think all those rope toys should be taken off the market!!
I think there are many thoughts on the mounting issue. I've heard some say it's a sign of one trying to dominate the other and I've also heard it's a sign of bonding.
Soffie was a little over a year old when we got Griffyn. We brought her to meet him at the breeders. We had picked him from pictures, but if she had shown signs of not wanting him and/or interest in another puppy in the litter we would have gone with her selection. Amazingly, he (Griffyn) seemed to know intuitively that he was the one we had picked. And he was relentless in his pursuit of Soffie. She backed off at first, (the breeder said that was the correct response) but then allowed him to charm her. (I posted a video of their first meeting... there's a link on my page. It's titled "my guy")
As you've said your intent was to find Jack a "best friend". And like you say, the hardest thing is to keep human emotions, wants and needs out of it. It's sounds like they're working on it, and it sounds like Jack is coming up with some of his own solutions. So I guess ultimately it will come down to how much more time you want to give it to see if they ever will work it out.
And on a personal note...... Hope you get to feeling better real soon!!!
Judi
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Well, I talked to Kandy and she said since Madison keeps mounting Jack when Jack clearly tells her he does not approve, she recommends stepping in and giving Maddie a firm correction. Also separating her part of the time and gradually reintroducing her to having him play when she's there.
She said that with the bitches, when they are in heat they frequently do this to each other to prove who is "top dog" but usually they will snap at the other one right away to let them know it's not acceptable.
I think since Jack is so tolerant, she kind of misread it as him accepting it.
Kandy also agrees it may take awhile for Maddie to warm up and want to play, and that she is being aloof because she's still trying to sort out where she stands in the home, which does make sense.
So we will try some slightly different management skills and see what happens! Because me saying "Go on, Jack, nail her!" does not seem to be working!
Thanks for all your input. I will let you know how it goes.
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Good luck Beth! I hope all turns out well as it seems that you really like Maddie and I'm sure she is confused not living with a bunch of females anymore and probably only interacting with males at breeding time??? It makes sense what Kandy said! Keep us updated!
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Very funny Beth! I agree that you can teach Maddie that her behavior is not OK. Hopefully she will adjust and Jack will have the playmate you are hoping for. It seems likely since they have not had a knock down drag out fight that they will adjust to each other. Hoping for the best!
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Well, it took about 2 days of diligently stopping Madison for her to get the idea that her behavior was not acceptable. Another week later, and I think I have discovered what initially triggered the behavior:
When Jack runs to chase one ball, he always has another toy in her mouth. One in particular, an interlocking set of three rubber rings, dangles and flops around when he runs. So between the play-growling Jack does when he is excited and the flopping rings, it appears Madison had her eye on the prize and made a couple half-hearted efforts to steal them, which of course Jack ignored since he was focused on chasing the other ball. She wanted those rings. From there, the behavior just expanded to all playing/running. When we halted her inappropriate behavior, she easily stopped at all other times but still gets a bit worked up if he's running with those rings, which is how I narrowed down the likely cause.
So we got Madison her own set of rings. Of course Jack tries to steal them if I throw them for her, but that is easy enough to stop since he listens pretty well to me.
Her behavior towards him has definitely warmed up. When we are on a walk she will always pay attention to his reaction to determine her own. If he pees, she will say "It's time to pee now!" and trot right over. If we meet other dogs, she will woof a little at them or maybe hang back, but if he goes right up to them she does too. Yesterday she even cheerfully greeted a German Shepherd the size of a pony. I was so proud!
She's also starting to sniff at him if he goes outside without her and occasionally nuzzle at his face. She's still playing hard-to-get, though. The other day my husband and I split up and each took one dog on our walk. We looped around and met each other halfway. Well, when she saw Jack she was all up on her toes and excited and pranced towards him, watching him the whole time, but then when they got near each other she was like "Pfff, I don't need you!" and just went right past him. LOL I think she's being a bit coy.
And then I caught this pic. It's not quite what it seems since he was on the little couch first and I was petting him, and she crowded up so she could get attention too. However, it's not something she would have done a few weeks ago:
Please excuse the mess on the sofa! We take better care of the dogs than the house....
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Oh how cute! Beth, I am soooo happy things seem to be working out. I just thought of this but can you imagine spending your life(ok Madison's) being taught not to interact with other dogs etc. and then all of a sudden you can but how do you know that???
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