Off Leash Mayhem
There was another thread about off leash dogs but it was closed for replies. I wanted to share my thoughts on the subject.
When my Mac became an adult dog, I would let him run free in the park across the street very early in the morning. He was friendly to people and other small dogs so I didn't see the harm of letting him run around if no one was around. But inevitably, someone shows up with their dog and of course Mac wants to greet them. When he would do that and my recall of him didn't work, I would apologize and think nothing much of it.
However, eventually, I learned that it's not just about your own dog, Keeping every dog leashed in public makes sure that everyone and every dog is on as equal ground as possible so that everyone can enjoy the outdoors without wondering whether or not they will be attacked. It doesn't matter if the dog is on the owner's front lawn when it's unleashed. In most places, that's still against the law. But more than that, it unfairly limits other dog owners from confidently enjoying the outdoors since they don't know whether or not their dog is safe. When I'm in such a situation, I'll take a very long route to avoid the situation. I'm certainly not going to trust my dog's safety to someone else who simply thinks his dog will behave.
I speak from experience about this too. My dog has been seriously attacked three time by larger dogs. Two were from a German Shepard while walking and one from targe dog in the large dog area of the dog park (before I knew better). My dog had already been attacked once so he's weary of larger dogs. Once I discovered it isn't fair to others to allow my dog to run freely, he no longer gets to do that unless he's in the backyard or at the small dog area of the dog park.
The first time he was attacked by a German Shepard, I was walking Mac in the park. He was leashed. The owner of the German Shepard had no control of her dog. He was jumping all over the place and finally got loose from the collar. He came running toward me and mac as the owner followed. She couldn't catch up but she yelled to me "Don't worry. He's very friendly." I don't care how friendly her dog is. In fact, it's not even all that relevant. My dog is leashed and weary of large dogs. A loose German Shepard dog running toward us is bad news. When the owner caught up, she didn't leash her dog right away. By this time, her loose dog was inspecting my leashed Corgi. Mac wasn't liking it so he would snap a little. But eventually, the German Shepard decided not to take it anymore. Of course, my dog escalated the situation. And soon enough, a fight started with my dog being grabbed by the back and eventually pinned.
The other dog owner was in panic and didn't know what to do other than to yell at her dog. I was able to grab Mac and restrain him. That's when the other dog calmed down a little and the owner finally leashed him. She constantly tried to assure me, "I don't understand why he did that. He's never done that before." Thankfully, after I inspected my dog from head to toe at least three times, he turned out to be fine.
In that case, she did not have any control over her dog even though she had a leash. But the point is, I don't think dog owners can really know how their dog will act when around other dogs. Maybe their dog is the friendliest dog in the world in their eyes but that still doesn't mean that they know what will happen with dogs of varying personality.
Months later, that brought her dog to the park again. And let him loose. I figure she did this because for her using a leash is just futile. She doesn't have any control with our without a leash so I guess that's why she didn't bother with it this time. Unfortunately, my house is across the street. I drove home from taking Mac out with me. I didn't see that this lady had just taken out her loose German Shepard from her car. And even worse, I had a flare up an arthritic condition called gout that prevented me from walking fast. So when I took Mac out of the car, it didn't take long for them to see each other.
The German Shepard ran toward us, crossing the street. When that happened, I grabbed Mac as he barked angrily and tried to claw his way out of my hands. I had a hell of a time moving due to the gouty arthritis in my foot. The German Shepard snapped at Mac as I tried to dodge him. The owner was useless. I had to plead with her to get control of her dog. In the end, all she did was try chasing him away. However, the dog just kept comping back toward me. I had to shut the gate in his fate while Mac tried desperately to protect me.
Everyone who keeps their dog unleashed always believes their dog is the friendliest dog in the world. It's the same story over and over again. They didn't realize their dog would act up because they've never done so in the past. Well, my dog is always on the short end of that type of encounter.
So what's the answer? Does that mean I have to trust that the dog owner that keeps his dog off-leash knows what he's doing? Forget that, I'm not here to prove a point at the expense of my dog's safety. Does that mean I should keep my dog sheltered constantly? Well that hardly seems fair especially when my dog is properly leashed.
I suppose I struck a balance of sorts. I don't walk my dog in areas where there is a good chance where there may be a loose dog. I'll take him to the dog park or a larger regional park where that behavior isn't tolerated. But sometimes I just want to walk my dog in my neighborhood. To be safe, I carry a 3 or 4 battery Maglite flashlight for light (of course) and for some measure of protection. I won't hesitate in protecting my dog if an unwelcomed dog comes up to us and can't be controlled.
But really, people should just keep their dogs leashed while out in public. It's the only fair thing to do so that all dogs and their dog owners can enjoy the outdoors without worrying constantly whether someone else's dog will start something or even whether their own dog will start something with a loose dog that's just coming over to say hi.
When my Mac became an adult dog, I would let him run free in the park across the street very early in the morning. He was friendly to people and other small dogs so I didn't see the harm of letting him run around if no one was around. But inevitably, someone shows up with their dog and of course Mac wants to greet them. When he would do that and my recall of him didn't work, I would apologize and think nothing much of it.
However, eventually, I learned that it's not just about your own dog, Keeping every dog leashed in public makes sure that everyone and every dog is on as equal ground as possible so that everyone can enjoy the outdoors without wondering whether or not they will be attacked. It doesn't matter if the dog is on the owner's front lawn when it's unleashed. In most places, that's still against the law. But more than that, it unfairly limits other dog owners from confidently enjoying the outdoors since they don't know whether or not their dog is safe. When I'm in such a situation, I'll take a very long route to avoid the situation. I'm certainly not going to trust my dog's safety to someone else who simply thinks his dog will behave.
I speak from experience about this too. My dog has been seriously attacked three time by larger dogs. Two were from a German Shepard while walking and one from targe dog in the large dog area of the dog park (before I knew better). My dog had already been attacked once so he's weary of larger dogs. Once I discovered it isn't fair to others to allow my dog to run freely, he no longer gets to do that unless he's in the backyard or at the small dog area of the dog park.
The first time he was attacked by a German Shepard, I was walking Mac in the park. He was leashed. The owner of the German Shepard had no control of her dog. He was jumping all over the place and finally got loose from the collar. He came running toward me and mac as the owner followed. She couldn't catch up but she yelled to me "Don't worry. He's very friendly." I don't care how friendly her dog is. In fact, it's not even all that relevant. My dog is leashed and weary of large dogs. A loose German Shepard dog running toward us is bad news. When the owner caught up, she didn't leash her dog right away. By this time, her loose dog was inspecting my leashed Corgi. Mac wasn't liking it so he would snap a little. But eventually, the German Shepard decided not to take it anymore. Of course, my dog escalated the situation. And soon enough, a fight started with my dog being grabbed by the back and eventually pinned.
The other dog owner was in panic and didn't know what to do other than to yell at her dog. I was able to grab Mac and restrain him. That's when the other dog calmed down a little and the owner finally leashed him. She constantly tried to assure me, "I don't understand why he did that. He's never done that before." Thankfully, after I inspected my dog from head to toe at least three times, he turned out to be fine.
In that case, she did not have any control over her dog even though she had a leash. But the point is, I don't think dog owners can really know how their dog will act when around other dogs. Maybe their dog is the friendliest dog in the world in their eyes but that still doesn't mean that they know what will happen with dogs of varying personality.
Months later, that brought her dog to the park again. And let him loose. I figure she did this because for her using a leash is just futile. She doesn't have any control with our without a leash so I guess that's why she didn't bother with it this time. Unfortunately, my house is across the street. I drove home from taking Mac out with me. I didn't see that this lady had just taken out her loose German Shepard from her car. And even worse, I had a flare up an arthritic condition called gout that prevented me from walking fast. So when I took Mac out of the car, it didn't take long for them to see each other.
The German Shepard ran toward us, crossing the street. When that happened, I grabbed Mac as he barked angrily and tried to claw his way out of my hands. I had a hell of a time moving due to the gouty arthritis in my foot. The German Shepard snapped at Mac as I tried to dodge him. The owner was useless. I had to plead with her to get control of her dog. In the end, all she did was try chasing him away. However, the dog just kept comping back toward me. I had to shut the gate in his fate while Mac tried desperately to protect me.
Everyone who keeps their dog unleashed always believes their dog is the friendliest dog in the world. It's the same story over and over again. They didn't realize their dog would act up because they've never done so in the past. Well, my dog is always on the short end of that type of encounter.
So what's the answer? Does that mean I have to trust that the dog owner that keeps his dog off-leash knows what he's doing? Forget that, I'm not here to prove a point at the expense of my dog's safety. Does that mean I should keep my dog sheltered constantly? Well that hardly seems fair especially when my dog is properly leashed.
I suppose I struck a balance of sorts. I don't walk my dog in areas where there is a good chance where there may be a loose dog. I'll take him to the dog park or a larger regional park where that behavior isn't tolerated. But sometimes I just want to walk my dog in my neighborhood. To be safe, I carry a 3 or 4 battery Maglite flashlight for light (of course) and for some measure of protection. I won't hesitate in protecting my dog if an unwelcomed dog comes up to us and can't be controlled.
But really, people should just keep their dogs leashed while out in public. It's the only fair thing to do so that all dogs and their dog owners can enjoy the outdoors without worrying constantly whether someone else's dog will start something or even whether their own dog will start something with a loose dog that's just coming over to say hi.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I really agree with you after similar experiences. We live in an area with a large park with hiking trails that adjoins our back yard. When we first moved here I often walked with friendly neighbors and their dogs. They all had their dogs off leash so I did too. After a year of this I observed several things. One, their dogs often jumped on people that obviously did not appreciate it and all of our dogs ate things that made them sick (wild animal poo and carcasses etc). I decided to start leashing mine which was a little awkward but even though mine had a good recall I still was not always able to stop them from getting into things. Eventually while walking we encountered a Park Guard who ticketed my neighbor for having her dogs loose. After talking with him he mentioned they stepped up their patrol because a dog jumped on a women at one of the other parks and broke her collar bone. I felt a lot better about my decision.
I am always a little wary of dog parks without a small dog area because you just can not count on other people to be responsible and you are risking your dog's safety. So thanks for sharing your experiences!
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Although I live in the country so my dogs are rarely leashed. I totally agree! My male Wynn and most or all of my others would try to protect me even if that wasn't what they needed to do. Considering their size compared to a larger dog (not attitude as we know Corgis have ). My experience with Wynn is he loves pups and small dogs but I think he feels it's his job to protect me from large dogs! ! He's used to them as we have an Aussie but a strange dog he is likely to growl at. I keep him away from larger dogs in the pet store and make him get "down" and "stay" if we are fairly near. We don't go to dog parks but I can see why this is so important for all dogs to be leashed whether out for a walk or in a park! ! My Livvy is scared of large dogs even though she plays with 2 she knows!
Another reason to have a buckle collar fitted correctly or a nightengale !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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I just wanted to throw a couple thoughts out there. I agree with what you say in regards to neighborhoods and the main multi-use areas of regular parks. However, some things to consider:
First off, as you point out, your dog was attacked by a dog who was on-leash, and slipped his collar. No collar is fail-safe, and I have also on occasion lost a leash if I was caught off-guard.
My brother's Jack Russell was attacked by a German Shepherd. He was walking up the street, the guy with the GSD had pulled into his garage and the garage door was 80% closed when someone in the house opened the door between the house and the garage. The GSD bolted out of the house, through the garage, squeezed under the door, and went straight for my brother's dog. It was a bad attack requiring being rushed to the vet. The GSD's owner was horrified, drove my brother to the vet and paid for all treatment. My brother's dog almost died: his bp dropped and he crashed and they almost didn't get him back. It was not a matter of leashes, as the dog was in his own property and someone opened the wrong door at the wrong time.
Another thought: My male is too large for the small-dog area of the dog park. He is overweight by about 7 pounds, and I would never let him play with small dogs anyway as he is big and rough. My female, on the other hand, is 28 pounds, and is the correct size for the 30-pound limit. I've had bad experiences at the dog park with either poorly socialized dogs whose owners ignore them because it's a "safe" area, or too many dogs entering or leaving at once in too small an area, and chaos reigns. So while I trust him to play with large dogs, I don't trust him to not get hurt in the large-dog area of the dog park. Too big for the small area, too small and not insane enough for the big dog area puts him in dog-park never never land.
Anyway, I do appreciate much of what you are saying. However, what you are advocating basically would require my male to spend his entire life on leash and never get to play with other dogs, unless I made elaborate plans to find people who have another dog who wants to play in their fenced-in back yard. The resulting poorly socialized dog would be much more likely to cause a problem on that inevitable day when he does get loose.
We also have a lot of hiking trails around here on state game lands without leash laws. As a matter of fact, since they are game lands, you are guaranteed to find people with off-leash dogs who are either hunting, running, or being trained. Having been raised with hunting dogs who were always worked off-leash in appropriate areas, I suppose I have a slightly different perspective. You can't hunt with a leashed dog.
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Permalink Reply by Michael on
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I disagree.
It's unfortunate that your dog is in this type of situation where a dog park isn't feasible. But I don't believe that justifies keeping one's dog off-leash. First, it's against the law in most places and probably yours. Second, you yourself indicate that your dog is too big and rough to mingle with small dogs. So if he can't mingle with small dogs in an area where dog owners freely choose to let their dogs loose, how can it be OK for him to freely mingle with other dogs off-leash in public? I don't know if he runs up to stranger dogs but if I have a smaller dog that's leashed I'm sure not going to assume that the loose dog will remain still. My dog will stare down dogs from afar. That's just what they do. It's not his fault. And because of these potentially confrontational situations, dogs are required to be on leash to keep the peace.
Also, if you have large dog, you should have a decent size yard for him to run around. But even if that's not available for one reason or another, perhaps taking your dog to the dog park during hours in which there are few or no dogs around would be a solution.
Furthermore, why is finding other people who have dogs to play with an "elaborate" solution. I do this ALL the time. There are family and friends who have dogs. I socialize my dog with theirs in a controlled manner free without imposing my loose dog to the public.
As for hiking trails that allow for loose dogs, that's great. Doesn't your dog have enough off leash time there? You see the difference is that in a neighborhood, everyone should have the freedom to walk their dogs on leash free from being harassed by loose dogs. That's why there are leash laws established. But in a leash free hiking trail, people choose to go there. I don't have to take my dog there. I do have to live in my neighborhood. And it's unreasonable that I can't walk my dog in my neighborhood and be concerned that my neighbors let their dogs out to run freely.
Also, while you point out that no collar is fail-safe that's won't be enough for a dog owner to escape liability for a dog attack. It's also not a reason for not taking any precautions. Seatbelts aren't failsafe in California for preventing injury in a car accident here in California, but that doesn't mean I can disobey the law and pass on using it. That reason certainly won't work if I get pulled over by an officer.
As for your brother's dog, it's very unfortunate that happened. But what does that have to do with what we're talking about here? The dog was attacked because the other owner was negligent in ensuring that his dog could not escape the premises. It may have been an accident as we call it but it's the other owner's fault in the eyes of the law. If anything, your example shows that dogs should be restrained when they're in public because they can be unpredictable. Just because dogs get attacked by other loose dogs despite having a leash law doesn't mean we should throw out the leash law.
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I already said that my dog is always leashed "in the neighborhood." I don't "keep him off leash". I let him off leash sometimes, very carefully, in very certain situations.
Yes, I can take my dog hiking, if I want to drive a half hour to 40 minutes, something I am happy to do on the weekend but not after work during the week.
Look, I don't know what it's like in California, but here we have one very small dog park (about the size of a Little-league field)--- one!!--- in a population area of about 300,000 people, covering probably 20 square miles or more. And that one has only been opened for about two years. My dog is not too rough to interact with small dogs, and does so all the time. However at a dog park dogs are playing. They are running, chasing, and wrestling. I am not going to let my 37 pound of muscle male corgi wrestle with a 7 pound Yorkie. If he meets a small dog wandering around he will politely sniff it, or stay away from it if it snarks; he's not a bully. But a dog park is for dogs to play off-leash. Mine is over the small-dog size limit by 7 or 8 pounds.
I already described the situations where our dogs are off-leash. It is very limited, in a very specific environment. It's nice to say everyone should have large fenced yards, but I live in a city and lots of people have no yards, or no fences, or both. In this part of the country we are well behind the times in having designated areas for dogs to be off-leash, which is why people find their own spots.
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Well, I don't have issues with people taking their dogs off leash where it's already allowed. - dog park, certain hiking areas. dog beaches, enclosed private property.
I'm not advocating changing the law either ... just that people abide by what they're already supposed to be doing. It serves a purpose and as I see it, that purpose is to keep dogs, people, and property safe and free from harassment from loose dogs as much as reasonably possible.
I don't think there is any situation where dog owners have no choice but to have their dogs off leash. But if there are no options for a dog to run free, the answer isn't to curb the rights of other citizens.
Not sure what the issue is other than people don't want to follow the law.
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Michael, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just explaining that the situation is not the same everywhere. Many people don't have good off-leash options for their dogs. I see things on telly with lovely dog beaches, dog parks that are a few acres with wooded trails and water areas, doggie playgrounds with agility equipment, and all the rest. We have nothing of the kind which is why people make use of ball fields or deserted areas of parks.
Just to give an idea, in the summer for example our dogs are almost never off-leash, except for paddling around in the stream. I have never seen a single soul at area of the stream we go to except for people swimming their dogs. Other areas of the park are too busy to even consider it, except perhaps very early in the morning.
Once the kids go back to school, the park is nearly deserted most days except for joggers or dog walkers, and that is when people let their dogs play in the area I mentioned. All winter we have the park to ourselves, except for other dog walkers, and everyone is on-leash except in that one area where people bring their dogs to play.
There is a state park we also go to, and again we leash our dogs. However we were there in the middle of winter, and except for a few ice fishermen in the distance on the lake, there was no one there. So we threw a tennis ball around for him on the frozen lake for awhile before leashing him for his walk. On a Saturday morning in the winter when the sun is just coming up and it's 15 degrees out, there's no one around in the park by us. So you can say that the law is the law and we should all follow it, and I can't argue with that. But were it not for the dog people, the parks would be empty 6 months of the year. "Curbing the rights of other citizens" to stay away from an empty park when it's bleak and miserable, instead of a park with 3 dogs playing when it's bleak and miserable, sounds great on paper but in practice it's just not the case. When there is a fresh snow some people show up to ride sleds, and then we don't let the dogs play, for obvious reasons.
There are probably a couple dozen playgrounds and ball fields in the area. There are two huge parks that are a couple hundred acres each. Both of those have two childrens' play areas, swimming pools, one has soccer fields, picnic tables, grills, tennis courts, streams, picnic pavilions, and performance areas. Neither has a single solitary scrap of land dedicated to off-leash areas for dogs. There are huge state parks around here, again hundreds of acres with pools and beaches and hiking trails, and no off-leash dog areas. If there were more areas, then there would be fewer instances of people making do with what they've got access to.
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Oh, and my father was once working with his Chessie at a dog-training area at a large pond in the area. There are even posted signs that say "Dog-training area." He got yelled at by some guy for letting his big dog off-leash. My father pointed to the sign and basically told the guy to stuff it.
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I still have mine off leash upon occasion but I am really careful where we do it. The hiking trails behind our house are clearly marked for leashed dogs only and when I had mine un leashed I was in the wrong. Fortunately mine have very good recall (good obedience classes) and I feel pretty comfortable with my ability to control them. However, I don't want a $75 fine for each unleashed dog either! And people walking in the park should not have to worry about whether my dogs are a threat. I am not saying never off leash just that people who don't observe the rules make it bad for the rest of us. We can no longer walk our dogs when the ski trails are open because so many people walked on their tracks. Most beaches are closed to dogs because so many people don't clean up. Of course I have a large fenced yard so it is easier for me. I wish more people would take training seriously so we did not have these issues. I have been to the dog park (unfortunately ours does not have 2 areas) and found many people to be considerate but also have seen the other. I leave if it looks out of control or too crowded. I know what you mean re hunting dogs having been raised with beagles. My father showed in field trails for years.
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Honestly the single biggest issue we have is with people with leashed dogs who do not clean up, or people on retractable leads whose dogs might as well be loose!
Jack will also ignore people unless they talk to him/ call him first, then he goes up and licks faces.
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So wait, you have a problem with leashed dogs that aren't cleaned up after. Do you have a problem with unleashed dogs that aren't cleaned up after? What does cleaning up after ones dog have to do with the leash vs. unleashed discussion? And besides that, you seem to imply that owners with leashed dogs seem to fail at cleaning up after their dog more than unleashed dogs. What world is this?
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