Play biting with other dogs? When to Intervene?
Thanks everyone for all your help so far (for responding to quickly to all my questions as well as for years worths of everyones contributions - questions and advice givers). I'm addicted to this site. I've spent so many hours pouring over everyone's posts and answers.
We've had Ralphie for about 2 months now and he is just shy of 8 months old. We've been taking him to a puppy class as well as dog parks several times a week. Lately I've noticed Ralphie's play behavior is growing increasingly aggressive. He's even pinned down a sweet 1 yr old pit bull (I was shocked as I've never seen him do this to any dog!). Today for the first time he was biting the back of this dachsund's neck at the dog park. I did not like this at all and apologized to the owner and left with Ralphie (maybe a bit reactive but we were ready to leave since we were there for over 2 hours). The dachsund did not enjoy this it seemed (who would?). Now that I think back I probably should have just said "No" and pull them apart slightly each time it happened but it was difficult since they were not playing just in one spot but running around etc.
Earlier today prior to the park, we were in puppy class and this other dog was doing the same to Ralphie. This other dog was mounting and biting the back of Ralphie's neck and not letting go. Ralphie didn't seem to like it and he kept trying to get out of the dog's bite. Is this acceptable behavior or should it be discouraged? What should I do next time? I much more preferred his old ways of playing which didnt involve actually biting down on skin.
When Ralphie was getting bit on the back of his neck in puppy class, I tried to intervene by saying "gentle" or "off" ( I read that you should just let them sort it out for themselves, but for how long do u watch before you break it up?) but the other dog kept mounting and biting. Ralphie just tried to air bite the other dog by twisting his neck to either side but was never successful. I still can't figure out when I should intervene as I heard they can sort it out for themselves. I have been trying to stay out of it most of the time, but now that I'm noticing his once gentle behavior is becoming more aggressive I'm uncomfortable letting him get bit on the back of the neck/being mounted and then becoming defensive and getting more mouthy. Am I overly sheltering him? Should I let him tough it out? But I really loved my gentle, wouldn't hurt a fly playfulness that Ralphie once had. He used to just pounce, chase and neck rub.
I'm sure some parents will think I'm crazy and say let dogs be dogs but I do see some really well mannered dogs playing out there and I do not want Ralphie to be one of those aggressive dogs that bite/play too rough and the other dog owners don't want their dogs to play with us anymore.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sam Tsang on
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Hi Sue, it is quite normal to see dogs who play "rough", my packs plays very rough, they can get loud at times, it may sound and "looked" horrible, but it's all normal play. My pack would bite on each other's ears, yank and pull by the neck, my older one would allow the younger one to drag him by the neck. If one of them crossed the line, the other one would "yelp" to let him / her know that it did hurt, then they would either stop or rest and replay later.
All pups learn how to play "biting", it may sound horrible, but when the pup bit too hard, the mother would immediately set the pup straight. That's how the pup learn / mom teach bite inhibition.
You should observe Ralphie and let him work it out with the "right" adult dog. As your teenage pup gets older, he will continue to test his limit and push the envelope.
Real biting will involve immediate open skin with a constant yank and pull without letting go, some dogs are natural born drama queen, don't let the noise fool ya! Good luck :)
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Permalink Reply by Ralphie & Sue on
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Thanks Sam. When are the teenage years over?
I totally agree with you in the sense that I want him to work it out with the right adult dog. I have yet to find the right adult dog for Ralphie to play with and I hope I will soon. I do want him to learn the rules of dog play by an adult dog rather than me trying to teach him myself! :)
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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I would be careful about allowing this with dogs you are not real familiar with. Ralphie sounds like he might get a little over excited when playing. I would pick him up and give him time to calm down. It is possible that a strange dog could really hurt him. It really is different when they all live together or are together very frequently. I also do not allow much "rough housing " in the house.
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Permalink Reply by Priscilla, CARLY, and Frankie on
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Sue my two do this as well but... ive have started making them stop in the house ,its to loud and i think its out side noise and it makes me nervous.. Carly is the growler, Frankie the barker so it does get pretty scary and Like Sam said when one or the other has had enough you can tell.. Carly is my female and she wont put up with as much of his over powering her , since hes bigger now this happen more often.
I would much rather them fun and frap to get rid of all this energy..
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Permalink Reply by Jane on
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My two grab each other by the neck all the time. Sometimes Henry's neck will be soaking wet from all the slobber lol. If they're being loud and annoying I may tell them to knock it off, but otherwise I just let them sort it out. 99% of the time it is just play, and if it isn't I can tell immediately by the noise, it's not the same as their regular play noise. I would not allow this type of play with a strange dog though. If he's getting over-excited at the park I would just snap his leash on and make him walk around with you for a few minutes to cool down.
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Depending on the circumstance it looks worse than it is. Mine play like this all the time and sage after playing the 1st time with her therapy dog friends looks like they are fighting but they are not. "Leave it" is a great command when you don't want them to do something and watching the other owner. I got after Sage for wrinkling up her mouth and showing her teeth (no growl) and both owners said that this was also part of the playing they were doing. Here's how crazy it gets for us...the one thing I don't allow is my males (neutered or not) to mount the females! I would also get to know the dogs(observe for how they play)/owners a bit before letting them play.
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Thanks for posting the pictures. Sage is a cutie!
If Ralphie did show teeth, I would definitely get at him for that as well. But other owners will tell me, its okay and that their dog can fend/take care of themselves. I do tell Ralphie to "leave it" which he listens at home but at the dog park, not so much. We will really need to work on that.
Ralphie has yet to start mounting other dogs. Just the biting on the neck thing so far. I do want the other dog to teach him "no" and hopefully Ralphie will get the clue.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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Play biting is normal play. Remember, dog play is all mock versions of something else: fighting, hunting, mating. I intervene in two circumstances:
1) If one dog is clearly giving "back off" signals and the other dog is not listening, or
2) A dog is mounting a much smaller dog and flattening it.
Come to think of it, I'll also watch very carefully if a male (usually mine) is trying to mount a female (usually anyone short enough to sort of reach); some neutered males are still capable of doing the deed and while it won't result in puppies, there are other issues.
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What exactly are these "back off" signals? What if the dog runs away from the other dog? That seems like it would be a "back off" signal... or could it mean "chase me! i want to play"? I get very confused watching dogs play, hopefully I can quickly catch on to what is appropriate and what needs stopping.
Sometimes it is very obvious when they are just playing/frapping. Other times I just can't figure it out.
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It depends on the dog, but for most dogs the initial warning is some sort of sharp growl/bark, often but not always accompanied by a quick clapping of the teeth (an air snap). You will get the distinct impression of the dog saying something between "Hey!!!" and "So help me if I catch you I will kill you." Depending on how annoyed the dog doing the warning is, it may or may not be accompanied by a mock charge (a charge that is clearly not intended to reach the targeted dog, being too slow and stopping before reaching the other dog). The proper response from the dog that is told off should be to release the pressure on the other dog. Depending on the relationship between the dogs, this is often followed by either a submissive gesture from the told-off dog (licking the other dogs muzzle, lowering itself slightly, flattening ears, etc) OR another invitation to play (play-bow, play-hop, etc).
A dog might also yelp if the other dog is playing too rough, and that should immediately cause the other dog to back off for a second or two.
Running usually means "chase me" unless the dog is running with ears plastered back OR runs and tries to hide by the owner or other friendly person known to the dog.
A good sign that it was all just play is if both dogs shake themselves (like when they are wet) after a particularly rough bout.
Don't worry, it takes awhile to pick up on play signals. I tend to watch facial expressions; if any dog looks worried I will call mine off, especially if herding instinct has kicked in and they have that wild gleam in their eyes and are nipping hard and chasing.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Markley on
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Hmmm. This is a tough question without actually seeing the behavior. My first question would be, is he neutered? If not, then definitely stop the behavior. My feeling is anyway, if you don't like what they are doing, then they need to stop. Period. Mounting is done by all dogs, female or male, as a sign of dominance. How far it goes depends. If it's strictly playing, then it's doubtful it will get out of hand. The other dog will get away, or let them know it hurts or they don't like it by snapping or yelping.
If however it's a dominance stance, then you are more likely to have a fight on your hands. If you could post a video so we can see the behavior that would be a huge help. You can look up what dogs look like when they are being aggressive, how they stare, how tense their ears are and their position, their body language as a whole. My dogs are great at letting each other know what is too much, when they need to lay off. We don't have fights anymore. Jackson and Seanna used to get into it occasionally after we took him in, but they don't anymore. As Seanna was the aggressor, I doubled my effort to let her know that I was the boss, upped the NILF program, pinned her down a couple of times when I needed to separate her, and doubled up my positive reinforcement and "us" time. If it's just a little snap or play bite it's no big deal. But if it's a grab and hold on for a minute, then it's probably a dominance ritual.
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Permalink Reply by John Wolff on
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Check out Joanna Kimball's blog http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff. She has extensive opinions; I'm not endorsing all of them. But interesting.
She also has fast action frightening photos of her dogs mercilessly and viciously ripping each others' throats and eyeballs out over and over again. Vicarious blood all over the place.
If a dog doesn't do any damage, it didn't mean to.
When Al was a puppy, I had to clean imaginary blood off the walls and ceiling every day.
Sometimes I worry about groups of dogs that don't know each other and haven't figured out the pack order -- i.e., dog parks.
Sometimes I have seen my little angel Al abruptly turn into a demon and go for the throat of another dog. He's never drawn blood, but he made it look like he was trying to. Sometimes I've been able to identify an antecedent to this behavior (resource guarding); other times it's been a mercurial mystery.
One thing to look for: if one animal lets out a submissive yelp, the the "aggressive-looking" behavior instantly stops, it's all under control.
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