Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rachael & Waffle on May 4, 2011 at 3:59pm

I am no breeder, but I think if the breeders are getting fed up with your questions, they are not people you want dogs from.  Lots of questions are a GREAT thing, and any responsible breeder would be relieved to find someone so eager and knowledgeable for their dogs.  I think the reasoning behind not selling you a show dog is that they don't want to sell you a show dog that ends up as a puppy mill stud/bitch, so without a showing past it is questionable whether you will actually show the dog or not.  I think the second point may go back to that, too.  If you are so intent on a certain color/sex, it would seems like you may want the dog for a breeding operation and not a show operation.

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Permalink Reply by Chris West on May 4, 2011 at 4:54pm

See, that's what I mean.  It comes off all weird that I want a certain sex or color, but its for reasons, not some random "that's cute" or "ooo, I could make money breeding that!"  I prefer a male because I get along with them better.  I find females usually have an attitude that conflicts with mine, and I think males are more laid back.  Plus, I am NOT interested in dealing with health issues related to keeping an intact female.  Now I don't feel color is anywhere near as important as conforming to the breed standard, but that's why I researched lines, narrowed down breeders, etc.  By the time I get to the breeder I want to approach, their dogs have the shape, walk, build I am looking for, so the only thing up for discussion is color.  I don't think color is the most important thing, it is actually the last thing I look at when choosing a breeder.  Personally I prefer blues merle cardigans.  Almost every breeder I have spoken to has a coat color preference they will admit to, but if you as a buyer express a coat color preference, it is looked down upon.

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Permalink Reply by Rachael & Waffle on May 4, 2011 at 5:30pm

Keep trying.  The same thing happened to Waffle's breeders.  Someone gave them a dog, and a few years later, they had the PWCCA champion for 2008!  Maybe contact http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ about it.  I would not mention a color preference at all.  Did you explain to them that you wanted a male because you weren't prepared to deal with an intact female?  Also, don't forget to ask about health!  Just because a dog is a champion does not mean the dog is necessarily healthy.

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Permalink Reply by Jane on May 4, 2011 at 4:05pm

I don't have any answers for you, but I sympathize. I had the same sort of experiences when I started looking for a cardigan, and this was just for a pet. I don't know what lines you were interested in, but the one person who did respond to me well was Kim at Coedwig.

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Permalink Reply by Yuki & Ellie on May 4, 2011 at 4:58pm

I am also not a breeder, but have you tried attending shows and talking to the handlers and breeders there?  People might be more approachable in person than they would be over the phone or through an e-mail.  It will also give the breeder or handler a chance to get to know you.  If you and the breeder get to know each other well enough, perhaps it would be easier to get a show dog (or get references!).  Or maybe they will let you show one of their dogs to get some experience?  Just tossing ideas out, I'm not sure how showing/handling works.

 

I hope your work pays off in the end!  And I agree that a breeder who doesn't want to answer your questions should be raising some warning flags. 

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Permalink Reply by Beth on May 4, 2011 at 5:36pm

Hi Chris.  There are only a few breeders here and most of those don't pop in very often.  You might want to send a message to Wendy (Wendt Worth); her newest bitch is working on her title and she might give you some pointers as to how she broke in.

 

Here's what I would do if I wanted to start showing.  I don't, so this is just a hypothetical.  Personally I'd first approach the breeder we used for our current two since I really like her, but if that were not an option, I would look into what lines I like, get an e--mail address, and open the conversation something like this:

 

"Hi.  My name is Beth and I have two wonderful Pembroke Welsh Corgis, both from (breeder name here).  Jack is 4 and we raised him from a pup.  Maddie is 6 and a retired show dog that we brought home after she'd had her litter with her breeder; she is now a spayed pet.  

 

Both my dogs are certified therapy dogs through TDI, and we like to take them to nursing homes to visit.  We also like hiking and swimming with our Corgis!  I do a little agility with Jack and he's a natural, but I've got some back problems that keep ME too slow, so I doubt we'll be racking up many titles.  I did a little rally with Maddie, but she's a happy airhead and really prefers just cuddling on the couch and playing frisbee.  

 

I've done some homework and what I really want to do is compete in conformation classes, with an eye to finishing a dog, so I would love to add a show-quality pup to my home with my other two dogs.  I've been following the show and breeding news for some time and I really like what I've seen with your dogs so far.  

 

I would like to ask if you ever consider placing show-pups with new owners just starting out?  I would like my first dog to be a male because I don't really want to get involved with raising puppies yet (though perhaps as I become more experienced I might consider it).   I'd just love a red-headed tri, if the right one came along, but of course color isn't that important and I'd take any color.  Really what's most important is a sound, correct dog that would be a nice show prospect.  

 

Since I'm just starting out, I'll probably have lots of questions as I go along.  I would love the chance to talk to you about your dogs and what I hope to do.  Would I be able to arrange a time to talk with you in person or on the phone?  And if you don't think you'll have what I'm looking for in a dog, might you be able to refer me to someone who does?

 

Thanks so much for your time.  Hope to hear from you soon."

 

That's what I'd do, at least.  I'm making my gender choice clear and giving a good reason why.  I'm giving a color preference without saying what color I want:  you are absolutely correct that breeders have favorite colors too, BUT they don't pick show prospects just because it is or isn't the right color so of course they won't do for you what they can't do for themselves.

 

This approach also gives my background, explains what I have done with my dogs AND why I haven't titled any of my dogs, shows that I've done some homework but still recognize myself that I'm a complete novice and will need lots of help.  It leaves room for the breeder to answer questions on her own time, when she's not busy.  It gives her a graceful way to back out if she's not interested.   

 

Most breeders like to answer questions when it's part of a dialogue.  I've always started with e-mail and then called at the time they arranged and had a half-hour or hour-long conversation; I don't blind call or expect them to answer long questions in e-mail.  Most of them are busy.  They have a house full of dogs and work full time.  They might have kids.  

 

Also, be aware that many smaller breeders virtually never place pups in show homes outside their own and their kennel partner; the exception might be a pup that's placed in lieu of paying a stud fee.  

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Permalink Reply by amanda on May 4, 2011 at 5:38pm

If the breeder doesn't have time to answer your questions, or talk to you then there is an issue.

 

I had no problems when I was looking for a Cardigan. I spoke to three or four awesome people and they were happy to answer my questions (and I had lots!), they also had lots of questions for me.

 

Have you shown a dog before? I would be up front about what you are looking for. A breeder isnt going to sell you their pick of the litter, but they should have no problem selling you a quality dog!!!

 

As for the color and gender preference, maybe it is how you are coming across. I wouldn't mention that in my first email to them, wait until they have gotten a feel for you before you talk about that. I don't think it is unreasonable to have a preference. Especially for gender. Color preferences scare breeders sometimes because I think they wonder how serious you are if you are picking a puppy based on color.

 

Anyway, I would try easing into that a bit more and explain yourself.

 

Good luck!

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Permalink Reply by Beth on May 4, 2011 at 5:43pm

I agree they'll answer questions, but it does depend on how you ask!  Most don't like to hear people read off a checklist.  I find it better to just start talking about puppies, ask a few real basic questions, and tease out the rest through the course of the conversation.

 

Also, as mentioned above, having a pre-arranged time to call when they are ready and expecting it helps!

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Permalink Reply by Jessica & Johann on May 4, 2011 at 6:14pm

Hi Chris,

 

I am not a breeder, but I did just get my first corgi/first dog ever about 6 weeks ago.  I wasn't looking for a show dog, certain sex, etc.- all I cared about was that he came from a good home where he was loved and well socialized with people.  I asked a local breeder a TON of questions on the phone and she was getting VERY irritated with me... Plus she wanted $750/pup and I told her that wasn't feasible for me because I am a student and only work part time.  She became even more furious and told me she could only -help me out- by selling me a fluffy for $650.  I still said that was too much and she said I shouldn't have contacted her if I didn't plan on buying one. I'm pretty sure that she was trying to make a profit.. I ended up getting Johann from a different breeder and paid $325 for him plus shipping.. and that total was still way less than what the crazy lady was asking for. I thought $325 was kind of a "low price" for an AKC puppy, but the breeder explained to me that she isn't in it for money.  She and her husband (semi-retired) enjoy raising a litter of puppies each year and that's all there was too it.  I talked with this breeder a lot through email and she thoroughly answered every question I had without sounding the least bit annoyed.  I was happy when she sent me pictures of him a few times a week from when I put my deposit down til when he was shipped to me.  It was great to see updated photos of him :)

 

What I'm saying is.. whether you decide to get your corgi from a breeder nearby or online.. make sure they answer all your questions about the puppy's health, home, genetic testing, socialization with other people/animals, health and temperment of the sire and dam, and ask about their experiences in showing dogs.  Also ask how long they have been breeding dogs and how long they have been breeding and showing cardigans.  I'm glad that you are very involved in your research before deciding on a dog to buy- it will all pay off in the end!

 

Good luck on finding your perfect show dog :)

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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on May 5, 2011 at 7:49am

I would find a dog show near you (use infodog.com) and go. You can usually find a breeder that wants to talk and ask what they would advise and how you can find a mentor. I have found there are always a few that are very helpful. You may need to be patient and not get too pushy.

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Permalink Reply by Cindy on May 11, 2011 at 1:35pm

Been trying to write something for this for a couple of days.  I'm sort of being a devil's advocate in a few things, so take them with a grain of salt please.

Yes I do breed.  Yes I have placed show prospects before.  No I no longer am comfortable about placing them and usually now place as companions first.  Been burnt-badly.  I bred for me first, no one else.  Yes, I'm selfish.  If by chance there is something available, it either goes to another breeder or I keep.  Or as with my last litter, the Dirty Dozen, I placed 3 nice show prospects in companion homes.  Rather place in a pet home that adores them then a show home.

In an answer to Chris' first question, why would a breeder want you to have had previous show experience? That's what I got out of it-I don't think it's so much a previous show corgi but could it be that they want you to have had some background in this venue before they send you out with one of their dogs?  Kind of like applying for a job, most usually the person with some sort of back ground in that industry will get the offer first.  We also tend to call it paying your dues.   Showing is fun, it's a competition and there's a lot more to it then being handed a lead and walking in the ring.  Training, conditioning and mostly, at some point, the dogs you show will be considered as breeding dogs-are you ready to do that?  Get in the ground level by helping, a lot.  Do a lot of shows as the "bucket bitch".  Hold dogs ringside, take in the extra, find someone to go to the shows with.  And I repeat, do it a lot. 

#2-sex and color.  Chris has it right with the most important part being the quality of the dog.  Cosmetic issues aside, ie the color, is the last thing you need to look at.  Unless you are already a breeder/exhibitor, that is looking for something specific.  Say you have a blue merle cardigan, you need a b/w to do any breeding.  or you have a dog with significant white factoring and are looking for a dog with less chrome to lessen your chances of mismarks.  If you are set on something in particular, be willing to wait and let them know that.  I have had people on my waiting list for 2 years for a pet so that they got what they wanted and I knew it was a good fit.  To me if you are unwilling to wait, shop around a lot, then I'm not going to bend over backwards to get you a dog.  Be loyal to me and I'm loyal to you. 

On the sex part, many breeders are hesitant to sell show prospect males as there is a little issue with registration and the inability to control breeding.  In AKC when you breed a bitch, all the owners are required to sign litter registrations.  But with a dog, it doesn't matter if it's co-owned with the breeder and you have a contract stating who, what, when, where and why on breeding, only one owner needs to sign the stud portion on a litter registration.  So you could get a male, then go off to LaLa Land and breed thirty thousand litters to Joe Blows butt ugly wrong color bitch with out the breeder or co-owner knowing you are doing it.  Does that make sense?  

Making sure that you let the breeder know that since you prefer a male that you will agree to their stipulations and conditions and a good solid contract will help the matter along.

#3 questions are awesome but it's important to remember to establish the relationship with the breeder first then ask.  Many times a breeder gets a little concerned about personal questions as it's a tactic that AR people might use to get dirt against you.  Had that happen to a friend once.  Person came off as a perspective puppy owner and ended up trying to turn them in for neglect.  All because she crated her dogs during the day while she was at work.  Any question can be turned against you.

 

Lastly, not all breeders are created equal.  They might have the bloodlines you want, the show record to brag about but after all is said and done, really have no clue as to what they are doing.  Luck plays on their side.  Be consistent in what you ask, be flexible and be willing to wait. 

 

Good luck! and hope to see you in the ring with us in the future!

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Permalink Reply by Beth on May 11, 2011 at 3:07pm

Hi Cindy.  I'm going to play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate.   :)    Please understand that I think a lot of breeders do a lot of great things.  I got both mine from a show breeder who is fabulous to her dogs and her puppy-buyers, and have had nothing but good things to say about another local breeder who I've dealt with but never got a dog from.  So this isn't "breeder bashing".

BUT.... there was an all-breed AKC fun match at the park across the street from my house last year.  I walk in this park every day with my dogs.  I am active in the local dog community.  I do therapy work with my dogs, I was at the time taking agility classes with one of them. 

 

I knew nothing about this show til I saw them setting up.  They had breed and rally and obedience classes (no points--- match show).   No one knew.  The community did not know.  The local AKC did not advertise or announce.  They had no events for non-show people.  I have seen some of the breed clubs do "altered dog" classes, which would be a great way for pet owners to try out Breed and see if they might like that kind of competition.  There was none of that.   No "meet the dogs", no coordination with any other dog events.  Nada.

 

I approached--- in a VERY friendly manner--- one of the organizers and said I was surprised I knew nothing about this show, literally in my own backyard, til it happened.

 

She was very curt and not at all welcoming, and I got the very distinct impression that they only cared about folks who were already there.   She gave me some vague answer clearly designed to make me go away.

 

If the breed clubs make zero effort to welcome newcomers, this sport will die.  Watch the breed clubs and you see mostly middle-aged and elderly women and their dogs, and while I recognize that these folks are the ones who have worked with the breed for years, the fact is any sport that seems to go out of its way to make newcomers feel unwelcome is ultimately doomed. 

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