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Permalink Reply by Jane on May 23, 2013 at 10:39am

I posted this in your other thread but I'll paste it in here too:

First pic - red/white pup

Second pic - two puppies in the front are red/white, the one in the back is a tri (can't tell RHT or BHT without seeing the face/ears).

True sables usually have a "monks cap", or a dark area on the top of the head. http://pwcca.org/colors_SW.html It's possible the red pups may keep some shading on the face or a sprinkling of sabling along their back, but that is impossible to tell at this age.

Here is my red/white Pem at 6ish weeks:

And here at ~2 years

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Permalink Reply by Yuki & Ellie on May 23, 2013 at 10:53am

As I understand it, it can be pretty hard to differentiate between sable and red/white at such a young age.  I'm certainly no expert, though, so perhaps there is a trick for telling which is which.  If I were forced to make a guess, though, I'd say they look like red & white.  Here are pictures of Ellie as a pup and as an adult:

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Permalink Reply by Jane on May 23, 2013 at 2:47pm

hmm apparently the forum ate the rest of my comment earlier...

First pic - red/white

Second pic - two puppies in the front are red/white, the one in the back is a tri (can't tell RHT or BHT without seeing the face/ears).

True sables usually have a "monks cap", or a dark area on the top of the head. http://pwcca.org/colors_SW.html It's possible the red pups may keep some shading on the face or a sprinkling of sabling along their back, but that is impossible to tell at this age.

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Permalink Reply by Wind Dial on May 23, 2013 at 8:04pm

Are they 100% of the parentage, Reds and Sables are genetically impossible from from two tri color parents of either red headed or black headed. Even if there is red/sable in the background. Being a tri color means that no red genes are present what so ever in the dogs genetic sequence. As a breeder my self, if I were inquiring about a red/sable pembroke and found out the claimed parents were both tri colors I'd drop them like a hot potato.  Or, if for some reason it happened to me I'd have to start an intense interrogation with my husband and children about any escaped love birds minus my presence because I would know something was amiss.  I probably wouldn't register the litter with AKC because I would also know the parentage could not be who I'd have in my records.  Just trying to explain with great sincerity that it isn't possible. 

Is one of the parents possibly a dark sable mistaken for a tri?  Or do they own any other male dogs that are red and white?

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Permalink Reply by Beth on May 23, 2013 at 8:22pm

The reason Wind Dial says the coloring is not possible based on the parents is that tri-color is a recessive gene;  if a dog displays as a tri, it must have two copies of the tri-color genes and therefore can ONLY pass on tri-color genes to the pups.

A red/sable dog, on the other hand, might have two copies of red, or just one copy of red (since red is dominant to tri) and therefore might pass on either red or tri.

So a red dog and bitch can have red pups, or tri pups (if each carries one red and one tri gene), or both.   And a red mated to a tri can produce all red (if the red dog is double red) or all tri or a mix of red and tri if the red carries a copy of tri.  But if the red is a double red, ALL the puppies will be red even if mated to a tri (since red is dominant).   

But two tris can only have tris.

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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on May 23, 2013 at 9:47pm

Here is my sable Sage at about 2 months and the 2nd was at 1 month.

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