We think Maddie might have DM Update 3/22
Update 3/22 after vet visit.
Well, through no fault of the vets we know no more now than we did before. Madison has so much going on. She has other neurological symptoms besides the back end. She has some mild tremors around her head, and she has pretty noticeable head twitches when she relaxes. She also doesn't track thrown objects or walking people at all any more, beyond what you would expect from vision loss. She has no concept that things will continue to travel in the direction they were already going and actually loses track of us on walks-- when she is on a leash no less. So we are most likely looking at a combination of things. Whether it's brain issue + arthritis or brain issue + arthritis + DM is impossible to say.
We are starting her on fish oil for its anti-inflammatory effects, and milk thistle for liver support due to her seizure meds. We are also going to try a harness with a handle so we can help her if she gets wobbly on walks.
We are worried about our Madison.
About a year and a half ago, she had some seizures and we started her on seizure meds. Predictably, she was a bit unsteady on her feet when she started them. However, she never completely returned to normal function and I wasn't entirely happy with how she was doing. The seizures were under control, but she didn't move quite the way she used to.
The problem improved to a new baseline, but then last summer she started getting worse. She was a bit reluctant to walk at times and had some trouble with steps. She had a thorough workup at the vet. I was leaning towards something neurological, but the vet seemed to think orthopedic. Maddie's nails were wearing more on the right rear and right front from not picking up her feet correctly and x-rays showed arthritis in her hip and spine. She passed the foot flip test, correctly righting her feet when her toes were turned under.
We started her on Metacam as needed and that helped a bit for awhile, but over winter we noticed some things I don't like. Her back end seems very unstable, far out of proportion to any pain she may have. I have had dogs with bad arthritis before and she does not move like an arthritic dog (she isn't starting stiff and working out of it, or being careful). She will tip over and get right back up with a grin on her face, or confusion, but never pain. She runs diagonally instead of forward, as if she doesn't know where her hind end is.
She started wearing her nails worse once we walked on pavement after the snow melted. I e-mailed her breeder to see if she had any experience with nail caps and got an answer that I was not hoping to hear: Maddie's litter brother is showing early signs of DM.
All the pieces clicked into place. I suppose it COULD be severe arthritis compressing the nerves in her spine yet not giving her much pain. It can happen that way. But the other day I did the foot flip test again and Maddie failed miserably. Bend her back paw under and she makes no effort to right it. She just stands on her knuckles. The right leg is worse than the left; sometimes she will correct the left and sometimes she won't, and the left nails are not wearing.
We have a vet appointment on Saturday. We may learn more than.
The bright side is that she is happy, bright, eager to do things, excited about treats, and still interested in her toys and barking and hopping after other dogs. She is sweet, upbeat, and loves being handled so if it comes to it, she would be a good candidate for a cart.
But she is only 10, and a young 10 at that.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jane Christensen on
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Oh Beth....hope all turns out well! Wynn turns 10 next month and still acts like a pup but I am already feeling worried that he is this old already.
On, the good side if there is something "wrong" and a cart will work....that's wonderful:)
Good luck and keep us updated!
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Permalink Reply by Holly on
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So sorry you have to worry. It sounds like DM is not painful at least so her quality of life can still be good. I sure wish dogs aged at the rate of humans.
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Permalink Reply by Beth on
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It's tough because DM is a disease of elimination-- there is no test except necropsy--- and she has so much else going on. She does have the arthritis in the spine. And then she has whatever caused the seizures. At almost 9 she was too old for epilepsy to start, so it's likely either a brain tumor, or some sort of lesion or strokes or something. And she has other neurological signs that aren't just in her hind end. She has trouble tracking objects. I know her vision is going, but it's beyond that--- if you throw a toy she has no concept that it likely kept going in the direction she last saw it heading, for instance, and will look for it in the wrong direction from where you threw it.
Thank goodness she's such a happy-go-lucky girl. None of it fazes her in the slightest.
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Permalink Reply by Alison Prasavath on
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Beth-
I hope it turns out well for you and for Maddie. After reading your above post, you now have me a bit worried or at least thinking more about my untold concerns of Noodles. I've noticed in the past few weeks that out of the blue when we are on our walk, he will not judge/see a curb and he will trip over it (always when going up, never down). It is always on the right side. I know he thinks his mom is stupid since I will test his vision on the side and he always notices my hand or object, but I can't seem to shake the concern as to why he seems to trip over the curb. I have thought that maybe there was more neurological damage done when he fell down a couple steps in the house almost 2 years ago(he was diagnosed with Horner's Syndrome) than thought and the older he gets, the symptoms are showing. I don't know, but it does have me concerned. I'll have to do the foot test like you said above and see what he does (he also has mild signs of arthritis).
Again, I hope all goes well for Maddie and glad that she continues to be a happy-go-lucky girl.
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It can be so hard to tell. Noodles could just have lost his depth perception in his sight and consistently misjudge the curbs. He could be a little lazy with his feet because of some nagging pain or simply his personality. It could be a neurological thing. It's just tough to figure these things out.
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If it helps at all, Maddie actually high-steps with her front end over curbs and cracks in the sidewalk and stuff. Apparently high-stepping in front can be another sign of DM, though there are other things that can cause it. She doesn't trip over stuff like that. She tips over if she tries to turn fast, or if she is navigating a small pile of snow. She also has trouble with the hard surface floors, which she never did when she was younger; she skitters and loses her footing.
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Thanks Beth for the reply. I'll keep an eye on him and talk with his doctor if I think things are getting worse. I love the pictures of Maddie.
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Trust your gut. You live with the dog. The vet does not. The exam is valuable but what you see every day is too. Take notes with you to the vet so you don't leave stuff out. That's what we are doing for our upcoming visit.
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Permalink Reply by Lois B. Allen on
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I am so sorry to hear about Maddie's illness as it sounds complicated. I'm glad she has such loving humans to care for her.
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Permalink Reply by Bev Levy on
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Awwww Beth I'm so sorry to hear this. I am curious, do you know if Maddie s breeder tests for DM? I have heard people say that they don't think the DM test is accurate. I sure hope things go better for her than it looks like now. Best wishes!
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Bev, I don't know if she tests now or not. When I e-mailed her, she said the pups were born before the test (which I already knew). The brother who she thinks is showing early signs is one of her own dogs and if I recall correctly, one of her favorites so I imagine it's tough for her too.
I think it's not so much that the test isn't accurate, as that over 50% of Pems test "At Risk" yet only about 1 or 2% of Pems get DM. And only about 11% test "Clear." So obviously there is more going on than this one gene and with so few clears, breeding quickly to all those clears risks a severe genetic bottle neck. And then more recently several Carrier dogs and at least a couple Clear dogs were confirmed positive for DM upon necropsy, so there may be more than one TYPE of DM, controlled by different genes. And then I read that some sort of terrier (fox terriers maybe) have a very high percent of dogs test "At Risk" and yet not a single one has ever been confirmed to have DM, even though they live to be old. So the last I heard was they are looking for modifier genes. Geneticists running the studies were advising Pem breeders to be very cautious in over-relying on the test in breeding decisions. Breeders who had DM dogs in their lines were advised to carefully, over several generations, breed more towards carriers and clears and breeders without dogs who actually got DM were advised to not eliminate dogs from breeding stock just because they tested At Risk. That was a year or so ago and I've not found anything more recent; I think the studies and testing are still ongoing. Hopefully they'll get a better idea of what should be done soon.
Day to day, she is just a happy dog and in that respect, honestly the seizures and even the diarrhea they were having was harder to deal with. But I do get sad when I remember her flying into the water and whizzing after frisbees, and watch her sometimes get a bit staggery now. She still does mile plus walks most days, but running is a challenge and corners are a bit iffy as well.
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